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Subject: Rule HELP!!!! rss

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John Polomsky
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Player A who is currently a merchant scouts for merchant player who's captain is Sikuma. He is successful. Sikuma makes him reroll. He is not sucessful the second time. Is player A now a pirate?? HELP We have an ongoing gamed stalled for 1/2 hour while they argue
 
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No. A player is a pirate if they have a bounty.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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No, you become a Pirate when you engage. Sikuma made him reroll before he was able to engage, and the new roll made it so he failed the engagement, therefore he is not yet a pirate. You aren't a criminal because you intend to be a criminal, you're a criminal after you commit the act.

-shnar
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John Polomsky
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Thanks guys. We reasoned that since she can only make
a pirate re-roll then she could not have made Player A, who was at the
time he scouted not a pirate, re-roll his sucessful scout. Using
the logic that she did not know to try to evade what was a friendly
merchant approaching her ship until it was too late.

 
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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Gamer John wrote:
Thanks guys. We reasoned that since she can only make
a pirate re-roll then she could have made Player A, who was at the
time he scouted not a pirate, re-roll his sucessful scout. Using
the logic that she did not know to try to evade what was a friendly
merchant approaching her ship until it was too late.

Do you mean "then she could NOT have made Player A, who was at thetime he scouted not a pirate, re-roll his sucessful scout"?

You played it wrong if you allowed the re-roll. Player A doesn't get a bounty until the attack is made, and by then it's too late for Sikuma to force a re-roll. She could do so next time, but she can't go back and undo the search that led to the current battle.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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cmdrsils wrote:
No. A player is a pirate if they have a bounty.


shnar wrote:
No, you become a Pirate when you engage. Sikuma made him reroll before he was able to engage, and the new roll made it so he failed the engagement, therefore he is not yet a pirate. You aren't a criminal because you intend to be a criminal, you're a criminal after you commit the act.

Those answers are correct in that a player becomes a pirate when they gain a bounty, but don't fit the situation described because Sikuma can't force a re-roll. Player A will make the attack after the first successful search, and get a bounty as a consequence.
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Andrei Ivanesei
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Player A scouts for Sikuma:
- Scout is a success
- She forces a re-roll
- Scout misses
- No bounty since Player A didn't attack Sikuma.

Player A scouts for Sikuma:
- Scout is a success
- She forces a re-roll
- Scout is a success
- Player A engages Sikuma
- Player A gets a bounty.

 
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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HolyGigi wrote:
Player A scouts for Sikuma:
- Scout is a success
- She forces a re-roll
- Scout misses
- No bounty since Player A didn't attack Sikuma.

Player A scouts for Sikuma:
- Scout is a success
- She forces a re-roll
- Scout is a success
- Player A engages Sikuma
- Player A gets a bounty.

That simply doesn't fly, because Sikuma can only force a re-roll for a pirate, and Player A isn't a pirate until after receiving a bounty.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Sphere wrote:
cmdrsils wrote:
No. A player is a pirate if they have a bounty.


shnar wrote:
No, you become a Pirate when you engage. Sikuma made him reroll before he was able to engage, and the new roll made it so he failed the engagement, therefore he is not yet a pirate. You aren't a criminal because you intend to be a criminal, you're a criminal after you commit the act.

Those answers are correct in that a player becomes a pirate when they gain a bounty, but don't fit the situation described because Sikuma can't force a re-roll. Player A will make the attack after the first successful search, and get a bounty as a consequence.

True, I didn't have my cards with me so assumed Sikuma's reroll was just for anyone scouting for her, not just pirates. Thanks for the correction.

-shnar
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John Polomsky
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Sphere wrote:
Gamer John wrote:
Thanks guys. We reasoned that since she can only make
a pirate re-roll then she could not have made Player A, who was at the
time he scouted not a pirate, re-roll his sucessful scout. Using
the logic that she did not know to try to evade what was a friendly
merchant approaching her ship until it was too late.

Do you mean "then she could NOT have made Player A, who was at thetime he scouted not a pirate, re-roll his sucessful scout"?

You played it wrong if you allowed the re-roll. Player A doesn't get a bounty until the attack is made, and by then it's too late for Sikuma to force a re-roll. She could do so next time, but she can't go back and undo the search that led to the current battle.


Adding the missing not. Which is how we played it
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John Polomsky
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Final result.

We did not allow Player B force a re-roll.
Player A and B fought.
Player B sunk player A

Since I am player D all is well
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Paul Szilagyi
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shnar wrote:
You aren't a criminal because you intend to be a criminal, you're a criminal after you commit the act.

-shnar

Logic will only get you so far in game rules disputes.

Speaking as the 'Merchant Player', playing Sikuma, (and having lost the argument on game night), I can attest to this.

Here, on the other hand, is what the rules say:

(p. 11, "Example 1:" about halfway through...)
Merchants and Marauders Rules wrote:
After a successful Scouting attempt he engages the wealthy player and immediately receives a French Bounty due to the criteria "Starting combat with a non-pirate ship". This means that before any dice are rolled the English captain is now officially a pirate."

Underlining mine.

In all of the arguing that went on, a lot of 'good reasons' why it ought to work that way were offered, but you can't (and they weren't able to) explain away what the rules actually state.

As the OP mentioned, the game was stalled. I didn't want that any more than they did, so (eventually...) I gave up on my argument. He got the result wrong, though, I sank in the ensuing battle, and that was the end of my being a contender in that game. 'Player A' was already out of it, which is one reason he attacked me.
 
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Paul Szilagyi
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As a separate argument, some rules only exist to facilitate game mechanics.

For instance, there's no logical reason why a real-world merchant would refuse to sell you his goods until you had first sold your cargo, or (alternately) that he would refuse to buy your cargo after you had bought some of his goods... this rule is in there to facilitate a game mechanic, namely the change in demand token, and for no other reason.

The rule quoted above about becoming a pirate after scouting, but before the battle has begun facilitates the play of several glory cards that would prevent a battle while the attacking player would still receive his bounty.

For instance:
Great Escape (found by scouting: escape before battle)
or a combination of
Fog (choose an action other than "Shoot", first round) + "Flee", with the possible addition of
Gust of Wind (which aids "Flee" by modifying successes)

any and all of those could happen after "Scout", and before "Shoot", with the attacking player (as per the quoted rule above) still receiving a bounty for his attack-attempt, though it was aborted.

PvP fights, are, after all, not like merchant raids. You know who you're attacking when you scout for them...

Edited to add:
Escort (bring in a Naval Ship to your sea zone to fight for you) could also be used, but this is not an example of the 'No fight, yes bounty' rule, as attacking a Naval Ship is a clear no-no.
 
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Carsten Jorgensen
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ZeroZilla wrote:
shnar wrote:
You aren't a criminal because you intend to be a criminal, you're a criminal after you commit the act.

-shnar

Logic will only get you so far in game rules disputes.

Speaking as the 'Merchant Player', playing Sikuma, (and having lost the argument on game night), I can attest to this.

Here, on the other hand, is what the rules say:

(p. 11, "Example 1:" about halfway through...)
Merchants and Marauders Rules wrote:
After a successful Scouting attempt he engages the wealthy player and immediately receives a French Bounty due to the criteria "Starting combat with a non-pirate ship". This means that before any dice are rolled the English captain is now officially a pirate."

Underlining mine.

In all of the arguing that went on, a lot of 'good reasons' why it ought to work that way were offered, but you can't (and they weren't able to) explain away what the rules actually state.

As the OP mentioned, the game was stalled. I didn't want that any more than they did, so (eventually...) I gave up on my argument. He got the result wrong, though, I sank in the ensuing battle, and that was the end of my being a contender in that game. 'Player A' was already out of it, which is one reason he attacked me.


Sounds to me like you are saying, that you still think the rules states, that you should be able to re-roll with Sikuma, even when the attacker was not a pirate to begin with?

When doing re-rolls you ignore all effects from the first roll. At least that is how I understand the term "re-roll". Also how it works for all other cases in the game (and all other games I have played so far).

If you allowed Sikuma to force the re-roll - because the attacker got a bounty and became a pirate (as a result of the first scouting roll) - and the re-roll then failed, it should be just as if the attacker failed scouting completely. But it would not be, since he would still have the new bounty (without "starting combat with a non-pirate ship" as is required from 1) on p.11 left coloumn).

Yes, you get a bounty before any dice are rolled and so becomes a pirate. But then the scouting part is already over. The attacker only gets the bounty when he starts combat - if you make him re-roll, he is not able to start combat after his first succesfull scouting roll. And so he should not have gotten the bounty in the first place, making it impossible for Sikuma to make him re-roll (unless of course he already was a pirate before the first scouting roll).
I see no conflict between this and example 1 on p.11.
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George
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ZeroZilla wrote:
The rule quoted above about becoming a pirate after scouting, but before the battle has begun facilitates the play of several glory cards that would prevent a battle while the attacking player would still receive his bounty....

Ah, but don't confuse "before any dice are rolled" as meaning that combat hasn't started. The rule is:
"You get a Bounty immediately after: 1) Starting combat with a non-pirate ship…"

"Immediately after starting combat" *is* before dice are rolled but that is not the same as "immediately after successfully scouting". It is a little confusing because they come right after each other.

Take for example a Merchant Raid where you successfully Scout but reveal a nation you don't want to get a bounty from. You let them sail on and don't get a bounty, because "starting combat" didn't happen.

For Great Escape, it actually doesn't result in a bounty for the attacker since combat didn't start:
Great Escape Glory Card

For "Fog", "Flee" is a combat action. Even though it was used at the beginning, the ships still engaged. "after starting combat" applies.

"Escort" is a bit of a special situation. You still get the bounty from the player you "engaged" but you fight the Naval Ship in it's place and then can get an additional bounty as normal for sinking it.
FAQ, Cutthroat Variant and Errata

In Sikuma's case, "starting combat" only happens after the Scouting attempt is resolved. If a re-roll is forced, then it hasn't resolved.

Some of the Glory Cards could clarify exactly what happens better, but the rule of "starting combat with a non-pirate ship" still holds.
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Paul Szilagyi
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soosy wrote:
Ah, but don't confuse "before any dice are rolled" as meaning that combat hasn't started.

What you said here makes no sense.

Since everything else you wrote is based on this, I'm going to feel free to disagree with your entire post. (Which is not to say that I didn't read it, or that I didn't understand it.)

What else would "before any dice are rolled" mean but 'before you've started rolling for the 1st-round "Shoot" action'?

 
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Paul Szilagyi
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Randor20 wrote:
Yes, you get a bounty before any dice are rolled and so becomes a pirate. (...) The attacker only gets the bounty when he starts combat.

I know I'm removing what you said in between, but can you see that you just said 'yes', followed almost immediately by 'no'?

Randor20 wrote:
But then the scouting part is already over.

The scouting part is always 'over' when you make a person re-roll. Or, rather, it would be if you weren't forcing the person to do it again.
 
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Paul Szilagyi
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Here's a general statement:

Examples are in the rulebook to help clarify the application of the rules.

This is self-explanatory, but the arguments being made here are working in reverse. In essence 'No, the example doesn't mean that, although it seems to, because the rule is this.'

Answer me this:

If it's not to allow the use of Captain's Powers and/or Glory Cards, why else would we have a separate sentence detailing that a person receives a bounty before rolling any dice?

It wasn't put in there for no reason, but all anybody can tell me is what they think it doesn't mean. What other function would it serve to specify that the bounty is received then, and not (as would be more natural) after combat?

Find me an alternate reason for that sentence to be in the rules, and I'll be much closer to believing what you're saying.
 
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ZeroZilla wrote:
The scouting part is always 'over' when you make a person re-roll. Or, rather, it would be if you weren't forcing the person to do it again.

No.
Scouting is 'over' when you are done with the scouting phase in its entirety, which does not include the acquisition of bounties, after it is over you can't force someone to reroll because that would mean re-starting the scouting phase.

EDIT:
You added anew post as I was slowly typing
ZeroZilla wrote:
why else would we have a separate sentence detailing that a person receives a bounty before rolling any dice?

That's not what the rules say.
They state
"You gain a bounty immediately after:
1) Starting a combat with a non-pirate ship
(this includes Merchant Raids)
2)Defeating a Naval Ship
(sinking it or winning Crew Combat)"

Starting combat means that you have moved beyond the 'scouting phase' and are into the 'declaration phase' of combat, until that point no one has gained any bounties as no combat has started. If you are in the 'declaration phase' you cannot force a reroll of a previous phase, that time has passed.
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Paul Szilagyi
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Reread, from the beginning, and you'll see I was referring to "Example 1" on page 11. Which, not coincidentally, is under the subheading "Getting Bounties".


This example is the very foundation of my argument.


Question 1: Who qualifies as a Pirate?
-----Rules State: "Any player with at least one bounty".

Question 2: When do you get a bounty?

See the section "Getting Bounties". Including the examples...
 
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You're missing the first sentence in the example you quoted that says "he engages the wealthy player and immediately receives a French Bounty due to the criteria "Starting combat with a non-pirate ship"."... i.e. combat had started.

The rule isn't "Before dice are rolled" or "after successfully scouting", it's "after starting combat". I was trying to show that distinction earlier.

Several things happen after combat starts but before dice are rolled. Players declare actions, Glory cards like "Fog" can be played, and the bounty is assigned.

Sikuma's power and cards like Great Escape are played after Scouting but before combat starts.
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Carsten Jorgensen
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ZeroZilla wrote:
Randor20 wrote:
Yes, you get a bounty before any dice are rolled and so becomes a pirate. (...) The attacker only gets the bounty when he starts combat.

I know I'm removing what you said in between, but can you see that you just said 'yes', followed almost immediately by 'no'?


That sure is creative - then you can make anyone mean practicly anything by manipulating their posts . The first sentence is followed by a sentence with "but" in the start. You cannot leave that out and get the same meaning.
So, no it is not a "yes" and a "no", since the "But then the scouting part is already over." makes the first sentence a "no" too.

ZeroZilla wrote:
Randor20 wrote:
But then the scouting part is already over.
The scouting part is always 'over' when you make a person re-roll. Or, rather, it would be if you weren't forcing the person to do it again.


Exactly! If you force him to re-roll you never get to the point where you give him the bounty, since that comes after the scouting is resolved. (explained perfectly by the post above)
 
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soosy wrote:
You're missing the first sentence in the example you quoted that says "he engages the wealthy player and immediately receives a French Bounty due to the criteria "Starting combat with a non-pirate ship"."... i.e. combat had started.


I wasn't missing it, I was continuing on. The next sentence starts "This means..." Clearly, that indicates it modifies, or at least clarifies, the first sentence. IMO, that makes it more important when getting to the meaning.

Here it is again, since it's been several posts:

Merchants and Merauders Rules wrote:
"After a successful Scouting attempt he engages the wealthy player and immediately receives a French Bounty due to the criteria "Starting combat with a non-pirate ship". This means that before any dice are rolled the English captain is now officially a pirate."


 
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Carsten Jorgensen
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ZeroZilla wrote:
Merchants and Merauders Rules wrote:
"After a successful Scouting attempt he engages the wealthy player and immediately receives a French Bounty due to the criteria "Starting combat with a non-pirate ship". This means that before any dice are rolled the English captain is now officially a pirate."




And then it continues with the last part of the example: "So as the battle begins, the wealthy French player can fight him off without getting a Bounty himself."

This last sentence is why the bold part was writen.
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Robert Stewart
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Rulebook:

Quote:
You get a bounty immediately after:
1) Starting combat with a non-pirate ship


(underlining mine)

If Sikuma can force a scouting reroll, then the other player must be a pirate, so he must have gained a bounty, so it must be after combat started.

If combat has started, why would you be able to undo that and go back to scouting?

On the other side, if you can reroll scouting, then you haven't yet locked in the result of the roll, so it's too soon to have started combat, so too soon to have got a bounty.


The bit about rolling dice is a bit of a red herring, but I'll address it anyway: You don't roll any dice in combat until the second step of each round. The first step of every round of combat is to announce your chosen action, even when your only choice is to "shoot", so "before rolling any dice" could be before or after announcing that choice of action, which means that it's definitely not automatically before combat starts.
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