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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Counting spaces (e.g. for range) rss

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C M
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Hi, played this for the first time last night (with no D1e experience) and we were unsure how to measure range. Could somebody here help by clarifying the rules?

Do you...
a) count each square that the LOS line passes through as 1?
b) like (a) but then add 1 for the target square itself?
c) count as if you were moving from the shooter to the target?
d) start with ANY square of your choice adjacent to the attacker then count squares as if you are moving into the target square (ignoring any obstacles)
e) something else?

Using the line of sight example on p12 of the rules, for example, how far is it from Leoric to the Zombie?

Using the different methods above I would get:
a) 2
b) 3
c) 3 (move E, SE, S)
d) 2 (starting SE of Leoric, on the rubble), count that square then one SE
e) ?

---

Then, if the middle rubble pile wasn't in the example map (so Jain had LoS), how far would it be from the bottom-left corner of Jain to the zombie?

Using the different methods above I would get:
a) 4
b) 5
c) 4 (move S, S, SE, S)
d) 4 (starting S, then S, SE, S - or starting SE then S, S, S)

Although there's usually just 1 difference between the counts that can be enough to make a big difference!

Thanks in advance for any help


 
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Tim Kelly
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Does the range counting example on page 14 help?
TK
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C M
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Can't believe I missed that example (we were in a rush to play!)

However, it's still not clear if it's (c) or (d), i.e. can I count 'through' blocked squares (like the rubble /on the map on p12) to get a 'distance' or only through passable squares?

For example, in that diagram on p14... if the target was actually one square further east you could trace LoS from the bottom left of the shooter to the bottom-left of the target. Would the range be 4 (S, SE, SE, E) or 3 (SE, SE, SE - i.e. counting through the goblin archer, even though he blocks LoS)?
 
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Tim Kelly
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I'd call it 4. I would not count range through a blocked space.
TK
 
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Lothar Neu
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Quote:
Starting with the space adjacent to the attacker
(of his choice), count the number of spaces to the target space.


I think the following should be right considering this rule.
There is no rule that says blocked spaces can not be used to count range.
Range just is the distance and nothing more.

I mean even if the line of sight uses more spaces then the minimum distance, the distance should not change.

The rules are clearly meant to be simple and you shouldn't complicate stuff.



I might be wrong on the second example, but as I said I think keep things simple is the right way to do.

Btw just checked the example in the rulebook, if the zombie is one space east it is still range 3, if you count blocked spaces.
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C M
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I was all for agreeing with KingLz's count then I re-read the 'check range' and 'counting spaces' paragraphs on pp 12 and 13...

The 'Check Range' bit doesn't mention obstacles so (perhaps) KingLz is correct and his second diagram with a (range) distance of 2 from the hero to the monster is correct?

But...

then the 'Counting Spaces' section says:

Rulebook wrote:
When counting spaces for attacks and abilities, players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces


Reading between the liness I guess this means that obstacle terrain should be considered, so perhaps that means that TK is correct and the distance (for a ranged attack) is 3, measured in a path around the rock? It depends on whether that 'attacks' bit I put in bold in the quote includes ranged attacks or if it's just for things like Reach...


This is clearly important to get right so further comments (or any link to an official ruling) would be awesome!
 
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Lothar Neu
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Then would this be correct?
Range 3 with obstacle or blocked space.
(Obstacle = blocked space, rulebook under obstacle)

 
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C M
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If obstacles are relevant when calculating range distance then, yes, the first one would be correct. But it's not clear if they should count or not.

For the second one it's anybody's guess... the monster next to the hero is not "obstacle terrain" so it may or may not be important for range and general "counting spaces" considerations.


Help!! cry
 
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Lothar Neu
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As I said, an obstacle space is considered as a blocked space.
So the range should be same.
 
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Tom H
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KingLz wrote:
As I said, an obstacle space is considered as a blocked space. So the range should be same.

All obstacles are blocked spaces != All blocked spaces are obstacles.

The "Counting Spaces" rules tell us we cannot count through doors and obstacles. They don't mention figures or "blocked spaces" at all so I say count right through everything unless its a door or obstacle.
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Christian @BoardGameMonster
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OK, Tom - I'm with you on this one (albeit slightly amazed that this thread didn't immediately get 5 experienced players saying "why, you do it this way of course")

So we count through any square except obstacle terrain or closed doors.

This means that, in KingLz's second diagram above, the Hero CAN use a Reach weapon to get to the monster in the bottom-right corner (he has LoS and the monster is TWO spaces away).

Last question... is that measurement going to be the same for measuring range for ranged attacks?
 
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Tomi Waselius
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Terah wrote:
KingLz wrote:
As I said, an obstacle space is considered as a blocked space. So the range should be same.

All obstacles are blocked spaces != All blocked spaces are obstacles.

The "Counting Spaces" rules tell us we cannot count through doors and obstacles. They don't mention figures or "blocked spaces" at all so I say count right through everything unless its a door or obstacle.


p.12: "If the line passes through the edge of a map tile, a door, or a blocked space (a space containing a figure or obstacle), the target space is not in line of sight."

This tells me, that even if this rule is mentioned considering line of sight, it also says something about blocked spaces.

p. 13 "players ignore all non-obstacle terrain..."

Is blocked space counted as an obstacle? If not, you are indeed right my friend.
 
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Tom H
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What is an obstacle? Things marked with a red border on the map are obstacles.
Rules p.18 wrote:
Obstacles
Obstacles are defined by a red line surrounding their spaces. These spaces are treated as blocked spaces; they block movement and line of sight.

Obstacles are blocked spaces, however many blocked spaces are not obstacles.
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Sylvain BONNEAU
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By the way, the § on p13 is intended to clarify how you count when traversing a terrain space. Except for obstacle, terrain spaces only have effect on movement. For everything else, terrain spaces count as 1.
Example: water terrains cost 2 movement points. They still count as 1 for range.

--
Buggy

Edit: rephrasing and clarification
 
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Sylvain BONNEAU
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Bump! (for TheisMagle)

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