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Subject: Fuseki Masterpiece Theatre I & II rss

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Christian K
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sounds like fun, you could also take turns in placing the 'random' stones in the second variant, although random is a lot of fun too.
 
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Pedro Silva
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Matosinhos
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Suggestion for random placement:

Take two differently coloured d20.
Choose a corner of the board to be coordinate (1,1)
One die is for lines, the other for columns. Roll them and place stone there. re-roll 20s.

Maybe a bit slow but should provide with enough randomness...
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Belgium
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When placing random stones, it might be a good idea to exclude the first and second lines, since stones placed here are as good as useless in the opening.

The variant with off-color stones behaving as holes in the board sounds interesting - go is plenty hard enough without variants like this though
 
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Jason Lee
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If the idea is to skip the fuseki or experiment with fuseki you haven't seen before, why not download a pack of pro games, randomly select an sgf, play out the first 20 moves from their game, and then resume normal play?

If you just want a weird random start, dice are probably the best idea.
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Jason Lee
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But if you're practicing with sequences no one has seen before, that's probably because the sequences are not very good. First, it would be irritating to feel that you started out behind because your random stones were placed stupidly, while your opponents' were not bad. With a pro game, you can be sure that the board is completely even at move 20. (Unless it's a Go Seigen game. In which case Go Seigen is already winning.) Second, it's hard to practice "principles and patterns" on randomly scattered stones. Whether you're talking about principles for balancing influence and territory, or principles for managing strong and weak groups, or principles for relying on good shape and exploiting bad shape, you aren't going to have a lot of room for practicing the principles if there are not positions, groups, and shapes arising from the fuseki.

I wouldn't worry about "pet sequences". This isn't chess. It's quite unlikely you could randomly pick two, or three, or even ten games, and have the first twenty moves be the same in any of them.
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Harald Korneliussen
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mazout wrote:
With a pro game, you can be sure that the board is completely even at move 20.


I disagree with that. It could be that the board is actually quite uneven at that stage, only today's pro players are not strong enough to see it. Go is deep enough that this is absolutely a possibility, despite a thousand years of opening theory.

One interesting thing is that you don't have to do very many random moves in the start before computers get a big advantage over pros. When there are many stones on the board of both colours that "just don't make sense", humans' ability to spot good moves deteriorate, while computers are largely unaffected. We see the same thing in computer Chess, but of course there the computers win anyway.
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Jason Lee
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Wow, twice now my guest wireless has timed out while typing a reply. Annoying....

@2097 - My point was that if there are no groups, shapes, zones of influence, or territories, then you won't have good chances to apply the principles that apply to them.

Think about life and death problems. Can you learn about poking out eyes, or playing the vital point, in a problem with no eyes or no vital point? What about under-the-stones, or false eyes, or connect and die? It actually takes a lot of talent and ability to set up a group that will live or die in a fascinating way. If you randomly scatter some stones in the corner, these principles won't magically appear. Same with fuseki.

Do you think you would learn more from studying through a DDK game or a pro game? If you think that random moves force you to come face-to-face with the reality of go without the crutch of accidentally memorizing patterns of good moves, obviously a DDK game is better. If you would learn more from looking for W's best reply to B's best move, a pro game is better.

If you go back and reread Kageyama's advice on joseki, I think you will see he specifically says that learning joseki - even learning them by heart - is important. The point is how you study them, not whether you study them.

@vintermann -

Hmm, I only meant "much more even than an amateur game." Do you actually believe the difference in games that pros currently think are close at move 20 could be more than, say, komi? More than half komi? I don't think that the ability of monte carlo bots to completely ignore the situation on the board when they pick their next move enters into it.
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Jason Lee
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Oh, I didn't realize you were just announcing the names for two established variants. I thought you were suggesting a variant way to play and presenting it for comment. "Fuseki Masterpiece Theater I" and "Fuseki Masterpiece Theater II" are good names, I guess.
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