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No Retreat! The Russian Front» Forums » Rules

Subject: No Mercy! rss

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Brian Evans
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No Mercy reads:

Quote:
Play before any combat die roll is made to cause one extra step loss to both sides' forces at that battle (applied after that battle has been completely resolved).



Now what happens in the following scenario:

- German player attacks a single Soviet one-step unit.
- No Mercy is played
- The combat is conducted as normal and a DS result is rolled.

Is the single Soviet unit shattered or destroyed?

If there were multiple soviet units involved would that change anything?


Thanks.
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Bob Wooster
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Furyn wrote:
No Mercy reads:

Quote:
Play before any combat die roll is made to cause one extra step loss to both sides' forces at that battle (applied after that battle has been completely resolved).



Now what happens in the following scenario:

- German player attacks a single Soviet one-step unit.
- No Mercy is played
- The combat is conducted as normal and a DS result is rolled.

Is the single Soviet unit shattered or destroyed?

If there were multiple soviet units involved would that change anything?


Thanks.

I'm just learning this game, but I'll try and take a stab at it. I'll assume that the Soviet unit has a valid retreat path (otherwise it's destroyed). The Soviet unit should be destroyed since it must take a step loss (whether this happens from the shattered units box or not doesn't matter). One of the German units must take a step loss as well.

If multiple Soviet units were involved the step loss could be applied to another unit (and any surviving units, i.e. after the step loss is applied, would be placed in the shattered units box, again assuming a valid retreat path).

Hope that helps, and I hope it's correct!

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Brian Evans
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Thanks for your thoughts, Bob. We played it just as you said. But it does seem to be a decent question and we couldn't find anything about it in the rulebook.

What gives me a slight pause is the bit at the end of the card that says "applied after that battle has been completely resolved". That kind of makes me think that you resolve the battle like normal, sending the soviet unit to the Shattered box, and then you have this extra step loss hanging around and no units actually left on the board to take the hit. If this rulebook were written by Bowen Simmons (Napoleon's Triumph) then I'd be confident that the damage would NOT transfer to the shattered unit. Yet, I think Mr. Paradis is not quite as literal in his rule writing as that. And so I lean towards the shattered unit taking a step-loss. But who knows? I'm usually wrong on my rule interpretations anyway!

 
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David desJardins
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I think you resolve the DS and send the Soviet unit(s) to the Shattered box and therefore there's no one left to take the "extra step loss".

Effectively this event penalizes the winner.
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Bob Wooster
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I think you resolve the DS and send the Soviet unit(s) to the Shattered box and therefore there's no one left to take the "extra step loss".

Effectively this event penalizes the winner.


I disagree. There IS a unit left to take the step loss: the one in the Shattered box! I would agree with you if the defending unit had been destroyed by an EX or DD, or if it was destroyed b/c it couldn't retreat.
 
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David desJardins
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Units in the Shattered box can't take losses. Because, you know, they don't have steps or anything, they are not in play.

Just my opinion, of course.
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Brian Evans
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I think you resolve the DS and send the Soviet unit(s) to the Shattered box and therefore there's no one left to take the "extra step loss".

Effectively this event penalizes the winner.



ahh, the game is afoot!
 
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Bob Wooster
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Units in the Shattered box can't take losses. Because, you know, they don't have steps or anything, they are not in play.

Just my opinion, of course.


I could be way off here, but units in the Shattered box (unlike the Destroyed box) DO still exist. The unit marker is not on the map because the unit is disorganized/demoralized and doesn't project any influence on the map, and is hence stored in the Shattered box. That is why units returning from the Shattered unit box are free (they just needed a timeout or something), while destroyed units cost a card to rebuild.
 
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Carl Paradis
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I think you resolve the DS and send the Soviet unit(s) to the Shattered box and therefore there's no one left to take the "extra step loss".


This is correct.
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Bob Wooster
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licinius wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I think you resolve the DS and send the Soviet unit(s) to the Shattered box and therefore there's no one left to take the "extra step loss".


This is correct.


Thank you for the clarification. Sorry for the wrong info Brian.
 
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Brian Evans
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haha, I was wrong again! My streak continues.

Thank you Carl.
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Carl Paradis
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Furyn wrote:
haha, I was wrong again! My streak continues.

Thank you Carl.


You are most welcome!

Using event cards in a game indeed makes for an almost-infinite number of possibilities and rules conflicts. The way to avoid this is to make the cards very "closed" in their text definitions, and IMHO this makes them boring. So when I designed them I preferred to make them more "Open", fully understanding that some questions would arise.

BTW if you like your interpretation of this card event better, then by all means use it in your games!
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Brian Evans
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When reading rules I prefer them to be as literal as possible. It always gets tricky when, as a reader, you have to make intuitive leaps as to what you think the author intended in a given situation. It's amazing how often intuition can lead people in completely different directions on a given subject. So, I like your ruling here. It keeps the guess work to a minimum.


Although a line in the rulebook like, "units in the shattered, destroyed or surrendered boxes cannot take step losses or be effected by event cards (unless specifically stated in that card)" might shore up this particular issue. Of course, there's always the issue of rulesbloat. You got to draw the line somewhere I guess.

Anyhow, thanks for the quick answer.
 
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Matt
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licinius wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I think you resolve the DS and send the Soviet unit(s) to the Shattered box and therefore there's no one left to take the "extra step loss".


This is correct.


To be clear, there is still a unit present to take the step loss, the attacking German. So, an attacking German unit must sustain the step loss, right?
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Carl Paradis
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madhatter wrote:
licinius wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I think you resolve the DS and send the Soviet unit(s) to the Shattered box and therefore there's no one left to take the "extra step loss".


This is correct.


To be clear, there is still a unit present to take the step loss, the attacking German. So, an attacking German unit must sustain the step loss, right?


Yes, this is correct.
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Matt
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That's what I figured. I ran into this situation in a campaign game last night. My Ruskies were launching a winter offensive in '42 and attacked a Panzer Army. I was eager to bleed the Germans of their panzers. However, it got shattered instead. The shatter result on the CRT good because I gained ground. My troopers were not so pleased because they were the only ones punished by No Mercy (or in this case Non Merci!)
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Carl Paradis
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madhatter wrote:
That's what I figured. I ran into this situation in a campaign game last night. My Ruskies were launching a winter offensive in '42 and attacked a Panzer Army. I was eager to bleed the Germans of their panzers. However, it got shattered instead. The shatter result on the CRT good because I gained ground. My troopers were not so pleased because they were the only ones punished by No Mercy (or in this case Non Merci!)


In fact in French it would be: "Pas de Merci!"

"Non Merci!" means: "No Thanks!"...
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J. Emmett
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licinius wrote:
madhatter wrote:
That's what I figured. I ran into this situation in a campaign game last night. My Ruskies were launching a winter offensive in '42 and attacked a Panzer Army. I was eager to bleed the Germans of their panzers. However, it got shattered instead. The shatter result on the CRT good because I gained ground. My troopers were not so pleased because they were the only ones punished by No Mercy (or in this case Non Merci!)


In fact in French it would be: "Pas de Merci!"

"Non Merci!" means: "No Thanks!"...

No wonder I couldn't figure out how counterblows work reading this:



That's the last time I order a game from Quebec.
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Matt
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licinius wrote:
madhatter wrote:
That's what I figured. I ran into this situation in a campaign game last night. My Ruskies were launching a winter offensive in '42 and attacked a Panzer Army. I was eager to bleed the Germans of their panzers. However, it got shattered instead. The shatter result on the CRT good because I gained ground. My troopers were not so pleased because they were the only ones punished by No Mercy (or in this case Non Merci!)


In fact in French it would be: "Pas de Merci!"

"Non Merci!" means: "No Thanks!"...


No Thanks... That's exactly what I meant... as a play on words. The only ones getting spanked by the card were my troops, and I was the one playing it.
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