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Subject: Craft buildings - placing a family member without acquiring an object rss

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Richard Hirschman
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I haven't played the game yet so I am not sure sure this situation would come up - preserving time in a Crafts building.

If I place a family member in a Crafts building (not the Mill), can I just pay with time for placing a family member in that building without also paying more time to actually acquire the object from that building? Perhaps I don't want to spend the additional time to actually acquire the object on my current turn but want to be in a position on a future turn to pay just the additional time for acquiring the object.
Thanks.
Richard
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Ken Dilloo
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I don't see why not, but I also don't see why you ever would. If you needed that good later, simply place the meeple later and do it all at once. Keep in mind that you may buy a good, without placing a meeple, and you may simply take a cube and not perform the action (except market day).

Edit: There is also no restriction to the amount, or colors, of meeples present in any crafts building, so there is no positioning gain either.
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brian
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The original rules say that you "may" produce a good after placing your family member there. So I take that to be optional.
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Curt Carpenter
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The TMG rules say
Quote:
This action allows you to produce one good in one of the 5 craft buildings. (Take the corresponding goods tile and put it next to your farmyard.)

There are two ways of producing a good. At each craft building (except the mill), you may choose:
a) to pay for the produced good with time (for this you also need a family member in the craft building)
OR
b) to pay for the produced good with influence cubes (or bags of grain, depending on the good)

It thus appears clear to me that you must produce a good if you take the action.
 
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brian
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curtc wrote:
The TMG rules say
Quote:
This action allows you to produce one good in one of the 5 craft buildings. (Take the corresponding goods tile and put it next to your farmyard.)

There are two ways of producing a good. At each craft building (except the mill), you may choose:
a) to pay for the produced good with time (for this you also need a family member in the craft building)
OR
b) to pay for the produced good with influence cubes (or bags of grain, depending on the good)

It thus appears clear to me that you must produce a good if you take the action.

I quoted the original rules because that is all I see online. I know TMG cleaned up some parts of the rule.

However, I fail to see where it is "clear" that you must do this with what you quoted. All I see that is mandatory is that to "produce a good" you must have a guy and spend time or pay cubes. It does not address the fact that you can place a guy without producing a good.

So while it may be in the updated rules, it is not in the rules you quoted.
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brian
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curtc wrote:
The TMG rules say
Quote:
This action allows you to produce one good in one of the 5 craft buildings. (Take the corresponding goods tile and put it next to your farmyard.)

There are two ways of producing a good. At each craft building (except the mill), you may choose:
a) to pay for the produced good with time (for this you also need a family member in the craft building)
OR
b) to pay for the produced good with influence cubes (or bags of grain, depending on the good)

It thus appears clear to me that you must produce a good if you take the action.

So I pulled out my actual TMG rules. They say the same thing as what I posted earlier. I think it is more clear that it is optional.

Quote:
If you want to pay for a good with time, you first need to train a family member
in the appropriate craft building. Place a family member from your farmyard onto
the craft building that you want to use. This costs you a certain amount of time
(the number of hourglass symbols next to the image of the gray family member
on the building‘s roof).
You may then immediately produce the corresponding good by paying as much
time as indicated by the production arrow on the building‘s roof.

Emphasis added.

So you can train a worker and not spend the additional time to produce a good. When you go to produce your first good, you are just paying the time for that (since the worker was trained already).
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Curt Carpenter
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For each space you may either take the action or not. The action of crafting is to produce a good. If you choose to do that, then you may choose how you do it.

I don't see the question as any different from whether you can spend time traveling without actually traveling (without spending the required cubes/wagon), or spend time at the market without spending the green cube and actually serving a customer, or spending time at the church without putting a monk in the bag, or spending time at the council without actually advancing.

The TMG rules are available online. I don't remember where I downloaded them, but you should be able to search and find easily enough.
 
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brian
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curtc wrote:
For each space you may either take the action or not. The action of crafting is to produce a good. If you choose to do that, then you may choose how you do it.

I don't see the question as any different from whether you can spend time traveling without actually traveling (without spending the required cubes/wagon), or spend time at the market without spending the green cube and actually serving a customer, or spending time at the church without putting a monk in the bag, or spending time at the council without actually advancing.

It IS different which is why the question was asked. The rules allow you to place a worker WITHOUT taking the good. It is quite clear. The part of the rules you quoted do not address the OP's question. The part of the rules I quoted does and it is clear that it is optional.

Quote:
The TMG rules are available online. I don't remember where I downloaded them, but you should be able to search and find easily enough.

I have them in hand as I own the TMG version of the game. But for the rule in question the original rules and the TMG rules are in agreement.
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Curt Carpenter
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I think you're misreading the rules and ignoring the overriding principle of either taking an action or not, and the action of crafting is to produce a good. But it's not so important to me. Play how you like.
 
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brian
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curtc wrote:
I think you're misreading the rules and ignoring the overriding principle of either taking an action or not, and the action of crafting is to produce a good. But it's not so important to me. Play how you like.

And I think you are misreading the rules that this particular action allows you to just place a worker and not take the good. (Not to mention the fact you keep referencing a part of the rules not involved in the question.) So I am saying you are taking an action by placing the meeple and that taking the good does not necessarily mean you have not taken the action. Even the graphic on the board supports this with the time of the training being separate and distinct with the time of the production.

That is how the rules are written and if it was not the designer's intent, then they need to issue a clarification and post errata.

It is important to me because the rules are clear on this as written. The term "may" is used. If it was NOT optional, then they should have said "must" or even left the word "may" out and used the implied command.

So unless you have some special insight into the intended principle, I don't think you are in a position to dismiss the rules and this discussion.

Play how you want, I intend to follow the rules.
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Curt Carpenter
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Note the title of the section you're quoting: Acquire good by losing time.

That's the action.

Based on reading and considering ALL the rules, I believe that the 'may' you are latching onto is inconsistent and unintentional. That is, it's easier for me to believe that whoever translated the rules inadvertently inserted a misleading 'may' than it is to believe that crafting is an exception as the only action where you can pay part of the cost and thus not get what the action explicitly says you get by taking the action.

I think we both intend to follow the rules. But it sounds like we're not going to convince one another without an official ruling.

Although I think it's an academic point. I don't claim to be great at the game, but I don't think this ever came up in my four or five games so far.
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Pedro Pereira
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Haven't got the original rules with me but I'm pretty sure that Curt has it right. If you place a meeple on a crafts workshop, you spend the full amount of time, because you are taking the action, you don't just take half the action (learning the craft).

The rules explain that there are two ways of obtaining the goods, the first is to buy them (you don't place the meeple) and the second is to produce them, if you want to produce the good for the first time, your meeple has to learn it first.

So the action is not to have the meeple learn how to make it but it's actually producing it, for which learning is a part.

But I would have to check to be 100% sure.
 
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John Bradshaw
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I'm not sure why this would ever be an issue but there is "clearly"(!) a slight discrepancy in the rules.

In your turn you always take a cube (or pay 3 to the well) and then you MAY or may not take an action. None of us has a problem with that.

The CRAFT action "allows you to produce one good in one of the 5 craft buildings" which rather backs Curt's point that if you take the action you produce a good.

The discrepancy arises in the description of "Acquire good by losing time", which introduces the word "may" - "You MAY then immediately produce the corresponding good ... etc".

These two parts of the rules, both in the same section headed "Crafts" are at odds with each other so a ruling would be needed.

Personally I'd play with the option to train and not produce as that "may" is in there and comes after (therefore supersedes?) the "allows you to produce a good". However, I can't imagine a situation where it ever need be an issue. If you don't need the good now, just take the cube without taking the action. You can always spend time - so there's no benefit to "investing" it now for the future returns it will bring - you can start getting the returns immediately.

I can't see that ruling on this one way or the other would make any difference to the result of a game but I've not given any thought to that point.

 
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Viktor Kobilke
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Placing a family member in the crafts building without producing a good is pointless. But if you do, it makes no actual difference, except that you give yourself a disadvantage. You lose time, don't gain anything for it (so it is kind of a lost action), and most importantly: You use a family member, that in your next turn could be used otherwise if the situation changes...
So it really doesn't matter. If you want to just train the family member, then do it. There simply is no need for a clear ruling here.
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vittorioso wrote:
Placing a family member in the crafts building without producing a good is pointless. But if you do, it makes no actual difference, except that you give yourself an disadvantage. You lose time, don't gain anything for it (so it is kind of a lost action), and most importantly: You use a family member, that in your next turn could be used otherwise if the situation changes...


The only situation that I can think of is this:

you're at your 6th/7th spot (out of 10) on the time track, and You know you'll have to pick up a black cube that round, and you want a meeple in the spot on the chronicle for crafting (the last,maybe?). However you have no need for any of the crafting products and want to achieve the death without spending too much time slot as that would hasten your next death after this 1, which you don't want to happen.

In that case you'll want to pick a cube from the craft area, train your lowest gen. meeple with 3/2 time (putting you at 9th spot), and next turn you can pick up a black cube, crossing the bridge (at the 1st spot) and kill off that meeple for the chronicle and you barely started a new cycle on the time slots.

If the cube at the craft area is black you can straight away kill off the meeple you just place in 1 turn.
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brian
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I am NOT saying that training without producing is a good idea. I am just saying that the rules as written allow it. Each section has a slightly different mechanic and the Craft section is already unique in two completely different routes producing the same end result.

Genesyx has pretty much nailed the exception why this particular action might want to exercise this option. You can't afford to spend the extra time because you need time to be resolved in a slightly different manner this time. His example is an example that you are forced into.

My other thought is that you just need to get a guy in the craft section so that he can get into the Chronicles. You don't want the good produced so don't want to waste additional time. And you want him dead but maybe a lower number is on the board and would be the casualty instead. And you really need him to do something before he goes.

I understand what the "section" of the rule book is which is why I quoted the whole section in context. With this route, the rules boil down to "If you want a good with time, you first need to train. You may then produce the good."

The section itself has broken this down into two steps. And the 2nd step is clearly conditional upon "may." Again, maybe that is not what they meant, but it is what they wrote. So until they officially clarify they meant "can" or "must" or did not mean for a word to be there, the rules as written say this.

I think this section of the board is wonky anyway. And the rules continue to support strange interaction. I don't know why anyone would want to place a 2nd figure in the same building. There is no advantage to block it for someone else as it is an unlimited space for meeples. Diversification can only help you even if your goal is only to spend more time. So the only implication I see is that if you just want to spend the additional time, you can do that. So if you can spend the additional time even if you already have a guy there, then there is really nothing odd about being able to spend the time just to train a guy and not produce a good.

FWIW, I came to this thread to say that it was just plain silly to do what the OP wanted and that I thought the rules supported train AND buy. But the rules seem clear in the way they are written to allow it. So this isn't me arguing because of some way I prefer to play but instead my argument on how English works and the way they chose to use it.
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brian
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I have sent a Geekmail to Markus to clarify. But seeing as how he hasn't logged on in over a year, might be a while.... I'll forward to Peter as well.
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Viktor Kobilke
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EDIT: To be consistent with the rules (and since it seems to matter to some people): Your are allowed to train your family member without producing the good.

The whole point here is, it makes no difference. As it stands, ColtsFan76 is right to point out that producing the good is optional. But playing the game you will most likely never encounter a situation, when you actually only want to train a family member and not produce the good. It is always the much wiser thing to do.
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brian
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vittorioso wrote:
Okay, here is the official ruling: Your are NOT allowed to train your family member without producing the good. But if you did, that would be fine, too

As long as that is coming from Peter or the Brands, I am fine with that. You need to note the errata on your English rules.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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vittorioso wrote:
Okay, here is the official ruling: Your are NOT allowed to train your family member without producing the good. But if you did, that would be fine, too


vittorioso wrote:
EDIT: To be consistent with the rules (and since it seems to matter to some people): Your are allowed to train your family member without producing the good.


Neither ruling is consistent with the rules. The rules are inconsistent as read by different rational people. That's the problem.

So you changed the ruling because brian appeared to care more???
 
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brian
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curtc wrote:
So you changed the ruling because brian appeared to care more???

Wow, I am not cool with that either. As I said, it wasn't my horse in this race. I was just arguing how the rules were actually written.

Even though Viktor is sporting info from Eggertspiele, I think I would rather get "official" confirmation from the Brands or Peter.

I don't care about how the rule falls out, I just want it to be consistent with the designers' intent. If the rule is written incorrectly, then state that and move on. If it is correct as written, confirm it and move on.
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brian
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vittorioso wrote:
EDIT: To be consistent with the rules (and since it seems to matter to some people): Your are allowed to train your family member without producing the good.

The whole point here is, it makes no difference. As it stands, ColtsFan76 is right to point out that producing the good is optional. But playing the game you will most likely never encounter a situation, when you actually only want to train a family member and not produce the good. It is always the much wiser thing to do.

As we have pointed out, it can make a difference and it does resovle things differently whether you have the option or not. And obviously it is coming up for discussion so it either happened, almost happened, and it obviously can happen to work out.

So I am concerned with your flippant answers and not weighing the full impact. To say it won't happen or doesn't make a difference tells me you really haven't thought about it fully.
 
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Viktor Kobilke
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curtc wrote:
Neither ruling is consistent with the rules. The rules are inconsistent as read by different rational people. That's the problem.

So you changed the ruling because brian appeared to care more???


*sigh* Okay, I'm very sorry about that obvious discrepancy, which suddenly seems to cause trouble, even though it had not for the last 9 months or so. The question was asked by a player, who has not played the game yet and admits to not even knowing if it even matters. And the answer is: it doesn't matter.
However, we will see, how we can clear things up in the next issued rules - but for now: Do as you like. Saying you MUST produce the good when training your family member seems to be making way more sense, because then you do not have to worry about something that is not worth being worried about. It is always the better choice. Again, sorry. We will look into that.
 
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brian
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vittorioso wrote:
*sigh* Okay, I'm very sorry about that obvious discrepancy, which suddenly seems to cause trouble, even though it had not for the last 9 months or so.

The game just came out in the US after being given the KSdJ. I don't know what the previous 9 months have to do with anything at all. Obviously a LOT more people will be playing and a lot more questions will probably be forthcoming as a lot more sessions are getting played.

Quote:
The question was asked by a player, who has not played the game yet and admits to not even knowing if it even matters.

I am not sure why him not playing has any bearing on the conversation. It can obviously happen so it is a real situation.

Quote:
And the answer is: it doesn't matter.

I disagree. we have pointed out a couple cases where it does matter. And while it may not generally be a good idea to do this, there are instances where it is could be a better play. There is an additional cost to taking the good vs. just training the person. So since the cost is different, there is obviously a choice that needs to be weighed and analyzed for that particular situation WHEN it comes up.

Quote:
However, we will see, how we can clear things up in the next issued rules - but for now: Do as you like.

You can clear things up by giving an actual official ruling based on designer intent instead of basing it on your opinion and changing that opinion several times in the same thread and even the same post. The confusion at this point is your further comments. So which is it? Yes? No? Maybe? Honestly, don't answer until you talk to someone else preferably Peter or Markus or Inka.

Quote:
Saying you MUST produce the good when training your family member seems to be making way more sense, because then you do not have to worry about something that is not worth being worried about.

That is fine. Post the errata and move on. Which is what I thought you did when you were for it before you were against before you didn't care again.

Quote:
It is always the better choice.

Yeah, but no. We have pointed out several times that it may not be the best choice. Generally, yes, but there are situations where it matters.
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Brian M
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Quote:

The CRAFT action "allows you to produce one good in one of the 5 craft buildings" which rather backs Curt's point that if you take the action you produce a good.

The discrepancy arises in the description of "Acquire good by losing time", which introduces the word "may" - "You MAY then immediately produce the corresponding good ... etc".


This isn't perfect wording, but I'm still not seeing any major discrepancy here. "Allows" is an optional word, so I dont' see how part (A) forces you to produce the good.

Saying "you may then..." is clearly optional.

However, I'm also highly dubious that you would ever want to just put a craftsmeeple out without producing a good. While people have speculated on possible reasons, they seem unlikely and highly contrived to me. About the only time a good won't be more useful than time is toward the end of the game - and craftsmeeple spaces fill up fast. I have a hard time seeing the time manipulation situation described ever actually plausibly coming up.
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