Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

Innovation» Forums » General

Subject: Convince my friends that Skyscrapers isn't "broken"? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Russell Martin
United Kingdom
Liverpool
Merseyside
flag msg tools
Sanctify!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I played a couple of three-player games the other night (the first in a little while). When setting up, the other two players basically insisted on Skyscrapers being the "8" achievement, saying that the card can "break" the game (or, at the very least, can make it "not fun"). (Ok, I have been on the receiving end of Skyscrapers, and its effect can obviously be very game-changing, but so can many other cards in Innovation.)

I was trying to think what to say to counter these comments. These aren't inexperienced players (nor am I), so they know about the card and that it's the culmination of the "crown" icons. I was essentially trying to say to them that since you know about the card, you have to plan for it (as much as you can in a game), but they insisted on it being used as the achievement.

What would you have said in response to their comments?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Cheng
Taiwan
Taipei City
n/a
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
craw-daddy wrote:
I played a couple of three-player games the other night (the first in a little while). When setting up, the other two players basically insisted on Skyscrapers being the "8" achievement, saying that the card can "break" the game (or, at the very least, can make it "not fun"). (Ok, I have been on the receiving end of Skyscrapers, and its effect can obviously be very game-changing, but so can many other cards in Innovation.)

I was trying to think what to say to counter these comments. These aren't inexperienced players (nor am I), so they know about the card and that it's the culmination of the "crown" icons. I was essentially trying to say to them that since you know about the card, you have to plan for it (as much as you can in a game), but they insisted on it being used as the achievement.

What would you have said in response to their comments?


Most of the cards in Innovation is broken.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Brendel
United States
Dunwoody
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I would go further: Every card is broken, under the right circumstances, and most of the game lies in identifying those circumstances when they arise.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Taylor
United States
Downers Grove
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
craw-daddy wrote:
What would you have said in response to their comments?


Grow a pair.

Innovation is not a game for namby pamby whiners. You get your innovations out and mercilessly exploit dogma effects until you can't anymore. Were they asleep when someone got Gunpowder?
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Maxwell
United States
Burtchville
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Threads like this one would be much more useful (and probably get a better response) if the OP would describe the card in question in his post. I've played a lot of Innovation and I don't recall Skyscrapers verbatim off the top of my head. That means I need to go get my cards and find it, find the card online or just close the page.

I'm not trying to be nasty, I just see this sort of thing all the time. All I can contribute is that I don't feel like any one card in the game is so powerful as to ban it, not even close.
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Zinck
msg tools
FWIW, I've played probably 50 games of Innovation and have never even seen Skyscrapers get dogma'd even once. I've been excited to try to use it a couple of times, but the exact scenario that I needed for it to be useful never presented itself. To me that alone argues against it being called overpowered.

I totally agree with the others here that there are MANY cards in Innovation can be devastating in the right situation.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
flag msg tools
badge
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb


Skyscrapers is a Crown Demand that attacks Clocks. Victim chooses a non-yellow color with a topcard with clocks on it, transfers that card, scores the ones beneath it, and returns the rest.

The balancing element is that it scores points for an opponent, so if the game is tight, it's likely to cost you the game, since they can probably achieve on their turn. If it's already a blowout, then scoring lots of points for them isn't going to hurt you, and if you were that far ahead, then your chances of winning were already pretty high.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
flag msg tools
badge
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Mr_Nuts wrote:
All I can contribute is that I don't feel like any one card in the game is so powerful as to ban it, not even close.

I agree, mostly. Combustion can be pretty sick.



When I am trying to win via scoring, this is the card I am most afraid of.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
craw-daddy wrote:
What would you have said in response to their comments?


"Let's play something else, if you don't like Innovation."
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Latto
United States
Foxboro
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
It's a level 8 card. Level 8 cards are supposed to be so powerful they seem broken. Otherwise, they aren't sufficiently powerful.

There are level 8 cards that let you destroy your opponent's entire score pile (Rocketry). There are cards that let you advance two technology levels and score 10 points (Quantum theory). There's a level 8 card that says "all those points and achievements you've been trying to get all game are completely worthless, the game is over, and I win!"; how can Skyscrapers be more broken than that? Even among 8's that attack the opponent's board, I think Mobility is on average more powerful than Skyscrapers.

The level 8 card I think is broken is Socialism. Why? Because it's the only level 8 card that *isn't* awesomely powerful. I have never seen a game where someone used Socialism to completely turn the game around and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Socialism is the only level 8 card that isn't broken, and that's completely broken!
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Smith-Stoe
United States
Maple Valley
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

Some points about the Skyscrapers:

1 - You need crown lead.
2 - Your opponent(s) needs a top card with a clock for Skyscrapers to be effective.
3 - Your opponent(s) needs more than one top card with a clock for repeated effectiveness of Skyscrapers.
4 - The clock card(s) better be good enough to cover up the other card(s) on you tableau.
5 - Tableau decimation is a tricky thing, as having icon lead in everything increases your chances of being open to bad forced shares, including being dragged down to lower ages.
6 - All that stuff Tim said.
7 - Skyscrapers is an Age 8 card. Of course it has potential to be crazy powerful.
8 - And yes, every card has the situational potential to be powerful.

I would think the best thing about Skyscrapers is not board decimation, it's getting your opponent's clock card onto your board. Taking the clock card is the cake. Getting the clock card is the icing. Removing the rest of the color pile is just leaving a little note behind that says 'You're out of cake.'
19 
 Thumb up
0.10
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Morgan
United States
Schenectady
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't know about Skyscrapers, but the one that I hate to see is Fission:



My wife seems to have this card every time we play!

~Brad
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lionel Graveleau
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Skycrapers is indeed a powerfull cards.

Don't forget that in Innovation, losing cards/symbols is not necessary loosing dogma available. You just have to share them with other and it can be interesting : you can activate a sharing dogma, compel the other speed up the game (since the 8th age, the end is not far) and then, since the skycrapers helped you scoring , you can be the players with the most score points ... and win !! I won my last game by this kind of sequence

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
For some reason I always wind up with Skyscrapers but it's rarely useful. Per the post above, there have to be a lot of conditions met before it becomes really powerful (just like most cards in Innovation).

BMinNY wrote:
I don't know about Skyscrapers, but the one that I hate to see is Fission:



My wife seems to have this card every time we play!

~Brad

Fission is rough sometimes, but again the demand part of it only hits people who are behind in Clocks. Often the Clocks leader doesn't necessarily want any part in blowing up the world, so it's pretty rare to have a situation where someone has it, has the ability for it to hit enough people for it to be anything more than a lark, and has good reason to use it. When it does happen it's pretty brutal and hilarious though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
SoCal
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Innovation seems to take similar to Glory To Rome (same designer)....


All cards are balanced, but some cards are more balanced than others
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
El-ad David Amir
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Mr_Nuts wrote:
Threads like this one would be much more useful (and probably get a better response) if the OP would describe the card in question in his post.

You can download the FAQ from the Files section, it includes a list of all of the cards.

(In fact, my initial motivation in writing the FAQ was to make the cards list more accessible)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Smith-Stoe
United States
Maple Valley
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I played the base set last night with my wife. I got Skyscrapers in my hand but didn't have crown lead. I didn't even make it past #1 on my list (above).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Erickson
msg tools
Skyscrapers scares the bejeezus out of me since it wrecks the stack it hits, but honestly the majority of games i've played have ended in age 6 so it hardly seems worth throwing a fit over, and i've won by Empiricism more often than i've seen Skyscrapers even land a solid blow.

The real response i'd have though is that "not knowing what the achievement is going to be is essential to the strategy of the game." I honestly think that rule is pretty core and am incredibly strict about its enforcement. Heck, i loathe Machine Tools and don't do anything short of whine when somebody (even me) wins from it.

Of course, if they really hate skyscrapers that much, the expansion increases the chance that the card will be out of the game so that's one solution.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randolph Bookman
United States
Los Angeles
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Can you convince my friends that this game isn't broken
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Cieslik
United States
Arlington
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Banana!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
shieldwolf wrote:
Can you convince my friends that this game isn't broken


Only if you can convince me that your friends aren't broken :D
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Walker
United States
Great Falls
Montana
flag msg tools
mbmb
Just played a game where my opponent had Mobility and was decimating my board. I played Skyscrapers and was able to have him remove his Mobility (he got it back soon after, though... shake ) So it was extremely useful in that round.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.