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Subject: Results of First Tournament? rss

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Eric B.
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The tournament rules PDF noted that the first official X-Wing tournament would be at Gencon Friday. Assuming the tournament took place, does anyone have the results? Would be curious to see the % of Imperial and Rebel squads and what the faction alignment was for the top squads.


I know some players have worried that the Imperials might have an advantage given the numbers bonus, so it would be interesting to see the top squads. Either way, though, obviously these results won't say much about game balance given that most of the players probably hadn't played the game much at all before and certainly won't have tested various builds and developed nuanced play styles.
 
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brian
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RogueThirteen wrote:
The tournament rules PDF noted that the first official X-Wing tournament would be at Gencon Friday. Assuming the tournament took place, does anyone have the results? Would be curious to see the % of Imperial and Rebel squads and what the faction alignment was for the top squads.


I know some players have worried that the Imperials might have an advantage given the numbers bonus, so it would be interesting to see the top squads. Either way, though, obviously these results won't say much about game balance given that most of the players probably hadn't played the game much at all before and certainly won't have tested various builds and developed nuanced play styles.

Though I volunteered for FFG and was on the X-Wing Demo team, I didn't participate in the tourney at all.

I am curious to know as well as each player just built their 100 point team and played against others. That meant you could have Rebel vs. Rebel and Empire vs. Empire. They weren't forcing people to choose one side or the other.

So what ever the "win" percentage is, the data will be skewed. I am curious how the X-Wings stacked up against each other since they are balanced on offense/defense with TIEs.
 
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Todd Warnken
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I played in the tournament (went 2 and 2). I flew empire. My first game was against rebels but the other three were against empire. I flew two Tie Advanced and two Ties. One opponent was similar but the other two had Vader and four Ties. The rebel player had 2 X Wings and 1 Y Wing.
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Bill Sullivan
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I played in the tournament as well, with three X-Wings (Wedge, Biggs, and Garvin Dreis). Initially, it seemed like the tournament was heavily Imperial, but they seemed to be making an effort to pair like factions together in the Swiss rounds, presumably to ensure a Rebel vs. Imperial final. All of the games I played were against Rebels, most of whom were fielding 4 fighters, including at least one Y-Wing. Bringing lots of fighters seems to be a popular strategy at the moment, as "Shoot them a bunch of times" is a reasonably quick one to pick up without extensive study of the cards. I think FFG is going to wind up selling a bunch of Y-Wings largely on the strength of the Ion Cannon, and the usefulness of the generic R2 unit card. I was surprised to see that most of my opponents were fielding 99 or 98 point forces- with as many 1-3 point upgrades as the game includes, I expected everyone to field the full allotment. As time goes on, we might see some people bringing 97 intentionally to ensure that they have the Initiative, we'll see.
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Guido Gloor
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Conspyre wrote:
I was surprised to see that most of my opponents were fielding 99 or 98 point forces- with as many 1-3 point upgrades as the game includes, I expected everyone to field the full allotment. As time goes on, we might see some people bringing 97 intentionally to ensure that they have the Initiative, we'll see.

Not that surprising really, it's a kind of meta-game double-blind bid for initiative Quite an interesting mechanic. Which makes me wonder, how much did initiative matter?
 
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brian
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haslo wrote:
Conspyre wrote:
I was surprised to see that most of my opponents were fielding 99 or 98 point forces- with as many 1-3 point upgrades as the game includes, I expected everyone to field the full allotment. As time goes on, we might see some people bringing 97 intentionally to ensure that they have the Initiative, we'll see.

Not that surprising really, it's a kind of meta-game double-blind bid for initiative Quite an interesting mechanic. Which makes me wonder, how much did initiative matter?

Initiative only comes up when two pilots have the same skill. And it is actually double edged because you go first in movement if you have initiative (which is technically a disadvantage) but also go first in battle (which is the advantage). But if two or more ships have the same value, they all get to fire during that turn anyway even if they are hit. So even the advantage is slight.

So for 1 or 2 points, I don't think it is that big of a deal. They were going to determine same faction, same build point ties by the flip of a coin.
 
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Bill Sullivan
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ColtsFan76 wrote:

Initiative only comes up when two pilots have the same skill. And it is actually double edged because you go first in movement if you have initiative (which is technically a disadvantage)


It's interesting, this early in the game's life, I really felt like moving first was advantageous- with no decisions to be made after the dials are set, the low-skill pilots were acting with the least potential for enemy movement to disrupt their actions. I had a couple of games devolve into very tight furballs (we got to know the collision rules VERY well), and the "bad" pilots wound up being much more able to get out of the way, while there was frequently a decent chance that the better pilots would end up flying into someone else, thus denying them another action. I would love to see the skill level of the pilots figure into it somewhere, rather than just a blanket "You don't get an action".
 
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Mike Matlock
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On the other hand, while you may not get an action, you are shooting before the weaker pilot does, at point blank range, which is almost as good as focusing.
 
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Jake Di Toro
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starnite_iv wrote:
On the other hand, while you may not get an action, you are shooting before the weaker pilot does, at point blank range, which is almost as good as focusing.


If you've lost the action for colliding your bases are touching. Fighters with touching bases are not allowed to shoot at each other.
 
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Mike Matlock
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Drats, missed that on the read through. Thanks for pointing that out.
 
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brian
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Conspyre wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:

Initiative only comes up when two pilots have the same skill. And it is actually double edged because you go first in movement if you have initiative (which is technically a disadvantage)


It's interesting, this early in the game's life, I really felt like moving first was advantageous- with no decisions to be made after the dials are set, the low-skill pilots were acting with the least potential for enemy movement to disrupt their actions. I had a couple of games devolve into very tight furballs (we got to know the collision rules VERY well), and the "bad" pilots wound up being much more able to get out of the way, while there was frequently a decent chance that the better pilots would end up flying into someone else, thus denying them another action. I would love to see the skill level of the pilots figure into it somewhere, rather than just a blanket "You don't get an action".

Moving first can be advantageous, however, knowing everyone's final position (as the highest pilot on the board) helps you make sure your action is most appropriate. Since the action can be more critical, this is where later turn order helps.

When everyone gets into the furball, moving first is usually the disadvantage (or more likely, forgetting your order gets you in the most trouble). While later pilots tend to have a bit more maneuverability having seen the other stop short of their intended destination.

Having played both ways, the ascending order for moving is best just as the descending order for battle is best at that point.
 
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So, outside of the heavy mid round same faction pairings, how did the game seem to stack up balance wise? Personally, my biggest fear at this point is the Evade action on the TIEs.

I was messing around with an old stat calculator I had built for Heroscape (NOTE: this means it shows defense slightly less effective, as Heroscape is 33.3% where X-Wing runs 37.5% success rate) and adding the evade action into the equation left me very concerned. TIEs with the 2v2 had about a 44% chance of hitting an X-Wing, while an X-Wing gets a normal 50% on the 3v3 roll. Add the Evade though, and the chance of an X-Wing landing any damage at all drops to 20%. That seems like it would pretty well negate the difference in durability the shields provide, which feels like kind of a problem when you can take twice as many models for the same cost.

What have been people's thoughts on the ship balance? Mostly it feels pretty good from what I've seen, but that Evade skill really worries me. I've been aching for a good space combat game, but Battleship Galaxies left me a little timid when it comes to faction balance.
 
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brian
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LunarSol wrote:
So, outside of the heavy mid round same faction pairings, how did the game seem to stack up balance wise? Personally, my biggest fear at this point is the Evade action on the TIEs.

I was messing around with an old stat calculator I had built for Heroscape (NOTE: this means it shows defense slightly less effective, as Heroscape is 33.3% where X-Wing runs 37.5% success rate) and adding the evade action into the equation left me very concerned. TIEs with the 2v2 had about a 44% chance of hitting an X-Wing, while an X-Wing gets a normal 50% on the 3v3 roll. Add the Evade though, and the chance of an X-Wing landing any damage at all drops to 20%. That seems like it would pretty well negate the difference in durability the shields provide, which feels like kind of a problem when you can take twice as many models for the same cost.

What have been people's thoughts on the ship balance? Mostly it feels pretty good from what I've seen, but that Evade skill really worries me. I've been aching for a good space combat game, but Battleship Galaxies left me a little timid when it comes to faction balance.

The TIE isn't going to win taking an evade each time. There are times where it is more beneficial to do a Barrel Roll and if ti wants to take down the X-Wing, it is going to have to get in close (for the +1 attack) and use a focus.
 
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I can see the Barrel Roll being more beneficial, sure, but done correctly its better than an evade anyway. I'm just curious what's to stop a TIE from turtling behind the Evade action and chipping away at the X-Wings. When you're running 2 v 1 and have a similar base chance of hitting, I'm not sure why you'd risk dropping such a huge defensive mechanic for the chance to inflict just a little more. Particularly when you don't have to spend the evade token until your dice actually fail you. Evade more than halves the chance you'll take any damage at all. It feels extremely powerful in the realm of dice math, but I don't have the game to have an opinion on how it actually plays out.
 
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brian
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LunarSol wrote:
I can see the Barrel Roll being more beneficial, sure, but done correctly its better than an evade anyway. I'm just curious what's to stop a TIE from turtling behind the Evade action and chipping away at the X-Wings. When you're running 2 v 1 and have a similar base chance of hitting, I'm not sure why you'd risk dropping such a huge defensive mechanic for the chance to inflict just a little more. Particularly when you don't have to spend the evade token until your dice actually fail you. Evade more than halves the chance you'll take any damage at all. It feels extremely powerful in the realm of dice math, but I don't have the game to have an opinion on how it actually plays out.

I am not sure of your percentages making sense. All an Evade does is give you 1 automatic "evade die" - so if you are rolling three dice, consider it a "4th die" that always rolls the icon you want.

You can't just turtle behind it. All it takes is one hit to get through three times and you are toast. If you aren't chipping away at the shields to start hitting the X-Wing, you won't win. And with a measly 2 attack dice, you need help with the focus token (which can then be used to boost defense if you end up not getting a shot).

As a playtester, we have played lots of games. As a GenCon demoer, I moderated a lot more games. I have not seen an Evade be overpowered at all.
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ColtsFan76 wrote:

I am not sure of your percentages making sense. All an Evade does is give you 1 automatic "evade die" - so if you are rolling three dice, consider it a "4th die" that always rolls the icon you want.


There's a big difference between +1 die and +1 automatic success, particularly when that die is base 3:8 success. Even 2 dice has a 40% chance of not giving you an evade. A guaranteed success, particularly one you get to choose when you use is pretty powerful. I'd argue that a TIE that gets to spend 2 evade tokens has increased its surviveability to the same level as an X-Wing.

ColtsFan76 wrote:

You can't just turtle behind it. All it takes is one hit to get through three times and you are toast. If you aren't chipping away at the shields to start hitting the X-Wing, you won't win. And with a measly 2 attack dice, you need help with the focus token (which can then be used to boost defense if you end up not getting a shot).


That's the thing though. The evade token means 2 hits have to get through 3 times compared to whatever you would have rolled without it. That's essentially 6 damage to be toast. Granted, it only works against one successful attack, but its not like TIE fighters are terribly worried about getting outnumbered. It will always cancel a wound too, since it gets the last decision to be spent, you can save it until you absolutely need it.

With an evade token, a TIE simply cannot be damaged by half of the probable attacks from a mid/long range X-Wing, not counting any agility at all. On the flip side, you're only rolling 2 attack dice, but they're only rolling 2 defense as well. As I said before, they have a 40% chance of getting zero evades, and the TIEs only wiff 25% of the time.

ColtsFan76 wrote:

As a playtester, we have played lots of games. As a GenCon demoer, I moderated a lot more games. I have not seen an Evade be overpowered at all.


And despite all the arguing above, this is actually what I'm most curious to hear. Dice math is, after all, just theory, so its interesting to hear actual play experience. I'm honestly curious to hear more people's impressions. I'm just concerned, having seen lots of promising games that struggle just because the point costs didn't take into account mechanics that greatly skew things.
 
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brian
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LunarSol wrote:
There's a big difference between +1 die and +1 automatic success, particularly when that die is base 3:8 success. Even 2 dice has a 40% chance of not giving you an evade. A guaranteed success, particularly one you get to choose when you use is pretty powerful. I'd argue that a TIE that gets to spend 2 evade tokens has increased its surviveability to the same level as an X-Wing.

So you have "4" dice. One that is 100% chance of a save. Each other 3/8 of a chance. The attack is 50% chance of hit each on 3 dice, 4 if you get close. The X-Wings also have the ability to combo a Focus die and a pull a Target lock. That increases the hits to 75% and gives you a chance to re-roll all misses.

Quote:
That's the thing though. The evade token means 2 hits have to get through 3 times compared to whatever you would have rolled without it. That's essentially 6 damage to be toast. Granted, it only works against one successful attack, but its not like TIE fighters are terribly worried about getting outnumbered. It will always cancel a wound too, since it gets the last decision to be spent, you can save it until you absolutely need it.

No, I meant one hit get through after the Evade. As I pointed out above, the X-Wing has more choices to make its attack more potent. I would be ecstatic if all you took was evades all game long. You may win a battle or two but I am winning the war.

You also aren't taking into account two other things.

1) Crit Hits. These are the last to get cancelled. So even if you have an evade, you need to cancel my normal hits first. A Crit Hit can be devastating - especially a Direct Hit which makes one hit 2.

2) X-Wings tend to have more options through upgrades and pilot skills. R2's that also help them on offense and defense. Some of the better TIE pilots have a couple options but not as much as the X-Wings.
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I'm definitely interested in seeing how the focus and lock actions play out. They're certainly interesting mechanics to consider and play with. Really, I'm just leery of the difference between "additional chance" and "additional success" is all.

ColtsFan76 wrote:

No, I meant one hit get through after the Evade. As I pointed out above, the X-Wing has more choices to make its attack more potent. I would be ecstatic if all you took was evades all game long. You may win a battle or two but I am winning the war.


I understand you meant a hit getting through after the Evade. What I'm saying is that without the Evade, two hits would get through instead. Therefore, each used Evade token is the same as a shield token. My fear is simply that the strength of the Evade token is close enough to the durability of shields that TIEs are significantly more durable than they appear at significantly less cost. This is particularly concerning when you add Vader into the mix.

ColtsFan76 wrote:

You also aren't taking into account two other things.

1) Crit Hits. These are the last to get cancelled. So even if you have an evade, you need to cancel my normal hits first. A Crit Hit can be devastating - especially a Direct Hit which makes one hit 2.

2) X-Wings tend to have more options through upgrades and pilot skills. R2's that also help them on offense and defense. Some of the better TIE pilots have a couple options but not as much as the X-Wings.


There are probably far more than 2 things I'm not taking into account. modest

I am always a little leery of your second point though. I can't think of very many games where an overcosted option is made better by spending more points on it. This usually has to mean the upgrade is significantly undercosted, which is somewhat straining on the upgrade system itself when upgrades are shared across models.

Again, though, these are just things that concern me without any experience. I'm very glad to hear that someone who has actually played the game hasn't found it to be a problem. Generally that means that there are a lot of factors I'm missing.
 
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brian
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LunarSol wrote:
This is particularly concerning when you add Vader into the mix.

Well in our Furball event at GenCon, Vader got popped by a Y-Wing. Of course, 3 X-Wings softened him up a bit first.

Try it out and see how it plays out. Like I said, it rarely makes sense that the TIE always takes an evade. If he did, then it would be the equivalent of a Shield. But since it isn't a real shield, damage, especially critical damage, can get through.

But there are many things that prevent taking an Evade. Using the barrel roll as I mentioned to try to get out of range completely. Doing a red maneuver that would cancel your ability to take an action this turn. Running into another ship (which seems to be more common with TIEs since they are typically more of them), causing you to lose the action.

My 2nd point on the pilots was more that their abilities tend to help on defense (such as Luke) and upgrades (such as R2-D2 regenerating shields and R2-F2 - I think - that allows an additional green die). So there are things on the Rebel side that slows down the attacks and offset any perceived advantage the TIEs might have by having an evade.

TIEs are not more durable than X-Wings and as soon as one goes down, the other one is going to be hard-pressed to finish the X-Wing on his own.
 
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Good points all around and certainly a lot to think about. Mostly just stewing waiting for this thing to finally be released...
 
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