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Subject: One more River question rss

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sean dolbee
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Can the union's AOT trace supply?
And would Vicksburg be out of supply if there where a Union Div in Jackson? (columbus is Union)


 
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Randy C
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Why is all that Reb leadership in west Texas? Must be a good BBQ going on.

The AoT has no LOC by land, because jackson and holmsville both reb controlled. Its supply by river north blocked by ft in vicksburg, its supply by river south blocked by ft at new orleans.

A yank division in jackson wouuld cut off vicksburg's LOC by land. But it could trace north by river assuming yank river control was blocked further upstream. By a fort in Memphis for example.

Above is not right, see following answers.
 
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Tobias Kriener
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I think AoT has LOC through Shreveport to Sabine City
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Chris Montgomery
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Actually, I think the Union AoT can trace Alexandria - Grand Ecore, and from there, via naval supply to Shreveport, or via land to Monroe, and from there to an ultimate supply source in the North.

See below - because the Alexandria and Grand Ecore are CSA controlled and Union Naval Control is denied, the AoT is OOS.

And as the previous poster said, they cannot trace through Vickburg or New Orleans. This supply path worked because the USA may still trace along "friendly-controlled or neutral spaces whether Union naval control is or is not denied." [Rule 8.12] This rule also notes situations in which the Union may even trace through spaces occupied by enemy units.

The CSA in the example are in supply via Jackson, which is a supply source.

If a Union unit occupied Jackson, they would be out-of-supply unless Union naval control was denied further upriver (North) of Vicksburg and from there, they could trace a LOC to an ultimate supply source as long as none of those spaces were enemy-controlled nor enemy occupied.

Edit: Corrected answer to conform to the correct answer, not an incorrect one.
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Randy C
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Sorry, missed the use of river to shreveport.
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Chris Montgomery
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Actually, Randy, I think you are still right. Since there were no CSA PC markers in Alexandria and Grand Ecore, I just "assumed" that they had to be neutral spaces. But this is Louisiana. There are no neutral spaces.

If Alexandria or Grand Ecore are enemy-controlled spaces, that would block the supply route for the AoT. The rule is neutral or friendly-controlled spaces free of enemy SPs. It appears in the above example that those spaces are in fact not friendly to the Union, nor could they be neutral - so the AoT would actually be OOS until they can regain naval control.

Sorry to reverse myself, here - anyone else like to confirm? If so, I will correct my previous post.
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Steven
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I believe the AoT is in supply:

The AoT is out of supply, see edit below.

Quote:
8.12 Unique Union LOC Conditions
The Union can trace along navigable rivers through friendly
controlled or neutral spaces whether Union naval control is
or is not denied. The Union can trace along navigable rivers
through enemy controlled spaces (with or without an infantry
or cavalry SP) where the Union has naval control.
The Union
cannot trace along navigable rivers through spaces that contain
a Confederate fort, or ironclad. Confederate Torpedoes have no
effect on Union LOC. A Union force with a LOC that conducts
an Amphibious Assault is in supply for any battle caused by the
Amphibious Assault. A Union force without an LOC can conduct
Amphibious Assault as long as all other conditions are met,
although the Union will be out of supply for any battle caused
by the Amphibious Assault.


The Union force would have supply in Grand Gulf, because the Confederates have not denied Union naval control to that space (from Shrewsport).

If the Union takes control of Grand Gulf, it would become an ultimate supply source for the Union, because they control a port and it is in supply.


Union Naval control is denied actually, because the Union has not opened river access from a river from a state in the north or the Ocean.

Quote:
8.2 Ultimate Supply Sources
Ultimate supply sources for the Union are:
1) Union railroads that exit the North map edge.
2) Union-controlled coastal ports (if its associated coastal fort
is Union controlled).
3) Any port space where the Union has naval control.
Note: A port without a Union control marker only supplies a
force in that space and not beyond.


The Union could then use Grand Encore as a base of Operations for future movements.

EDIT: See posts below.
 
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Randy C
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Does union river control generate from a river starting in the south, [like shreveport] or only rivers starting from the North?

See 6.62 number 2.

DESIGN NOTE: Union Naval Control should be thought of
as a pressure that is exerted along all navigable rivers from
the North and against Confederate coastline spaces from the
Sea. Union naval pressure prevails unless the South can block
the pressure with forts or ironclads. One way to think about it
is Union Naval control emanates from where the Ohio (both
ends), the Wabash and the Mississippi rivers flow off the North
edge of the map (even though they are not navigable at those
points). At the beginning of the Campaign game Cairo is connected
to those sources of Union naval pressure that flow down
the Mississippi, Ohio, Cumberland and Tennessee rivers. The
Confederate fort at Dover, TN (Forts Henry and Donaldson)
blocks this pressure from reaching Nashville, TN. The Confederate
fort at Columbus, KY blocks this pressure from reaching
south along the Mississippi.
 
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Steven
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I had always assumed (possibly incorrectly) that other rivers could be added, if the Union gained control of the headwaters of a river. I could be wrong. Anyone know for sure?

EDIT: Incorrect, Union Naval control can only originate from a northern state or the Ocean. Even if the Union gains control of a river originating from a Confederate State it must open that river to Union Control to the Ocean or a Northern State.
 
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Chris Montgomery
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I had not thought that Political Control of Shreveport would allow Union Naval Control in those waters. Since the Union pressure along the rivers only originates in the Gulf and along the Ohio and Mississippi in the North, those would be the only ways to obtain Union Naval Control. And since both these routes are blocked, I had assumed (in my second post stating that the AoT was OOS) that Union Naval control was still denied along the Shreveport-Alexandria-Grand Encore route.

The logical thrust of this argument is that the Union Navy's draft vessels can't be carried overland from, say, Paducah, KY to Shreveport - and any circuitous water route would include estuaries and small creeks that would be too shallow. So the only way to regain Union Naval Control is to open the Mississippi to Union traffic from the Gulf or the Ohio-Mississippi confluence.

But - I could be wrong, too.
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sean dolbee
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Looks like a can of worms?
The Union has control of the Miss all the way down to Vicksburg (both Menphis and Columbus are Union)
I beleive the AOT would be in supply thru Shrevport because the Navy just got the new inflatable Dingys.

Wouldn't Vicksburg be in supply thru Holmsville/Springfield/New Orleans?
Assuming a Union div in Jackson?

Can both trace supply thru the river?
 
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Jon Gautier

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AoT is out of supply because all of the river spaces are DUNC. The Mississippi is cut by by the forts. The Red River originates in an original CSA state, so the reb forts on the Miss serve to DUNC that as well. AoT can't trace all the way to Sabine because it does not control the river spaces, as it must if they are DUNC.
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Jon Gautier

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A union sp in Jackson would put Vicksburg OOS. The CSA can trace supply along a DUNC river, but not through a union sp. So Vicksburg can't trace through AoT. Vicksburg could not trace north along the Miss since that part of the river is not DUNC.
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Steven
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Thanks Jon. I will edit my posts.
 
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sean dolbee
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So would the AOT need to control Port Hudson aswell? or just Grand Ecore and Alexandria
 
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Morocco Mole
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Hello.

I'm slowly learning this game. What does "DUNC" mean? Thanks
 
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Steven
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I assume it stands for denied union naval control?
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Chris Montgomery
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dolbee123 wrote:
So would the AOT need to control Port Hudson aswell? or just Grand Ecore and Alexandria


Just Alexandria and Grand Ecore. Note that Port Hudson occurs further down river AFTER the Red River had begun it's run into Arkansas, so it is not needed.
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