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The Napoleonic Wars (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Clarification needed: when exactly does the turn end ? rss

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darune
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From 5.1:

When Denmark, the last scheduled nation to move in each Round
regardless of which nation took the first Impulse of the Turn, has
played or passed, the Impulse marker returns to France at the
start of the Track.

This sequence continues until only one nation has an
unplayed card(s) remaining (5.5). The Turn will end
after that nation takes its Impulse (unless in so doing
another nation gains a card during that Impulse).
Played and discarded cards are placed face up offboard in the
discard pile and cannot be inspected beyond the top card.


From 5.5:
5.5 END OF IMPULSES
After Denmark plays or passes, the Movement Track has completed
a Round and the Impulse marker returns to the French
space. Advance the Round marker one space to the right on the
Key Control Track. This sequence continues until only one Nation
has unplayed card(s) remaining. The Turn will end after that
Nation takes its Impulse. Then begin the Attrition Phase (5.6).
If the last nation to play has cards remaining, those cards are
retained until the next Turn (14.31•4).

---

I know this has been posted about in another thread but i wanted to bring it up again.

For some reason i can interpret this in two ways, because of the "..this sequence continues until.."

When do you check for when one player has cards left ? after each impulse or after each round (when denmark has played/passed) ?

After rereading the rules, the situation where no one has a card left is not covered, so maybe it is safe to assume that you check after each impulse/play.


Also note a sometimes overlooked rule is that you don't reset the impulse track between turns.


Regards

darune
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Donald Everett
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Check after every card play.

Example: France has two cards left, Britain has one card left. It is France's impulse. France plays one of her cards for 4 CPs. France moves an army to attack a duchy containing British units. Britain plays its last card (a battle card) to influence the battle's outcome. Britain wins the battle and the French army retreats.

Britain now has zero cards and France has one card in hand. As soon as France's current impulse is concluded, the game turn ends because France is the only nation holding unplayed cards.

-Donald
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darune
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Thanks for the clarification. Very good example too!
 
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John Griffey
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I would check at the beginning of each Nation's Impulse to see if the impulsing Nation is the last Nation to have a card(s). If it is, the Impulses end after that Nation plays a card and has its Impulse (unless that card causes the draw of more cards). If at the instant the Nation plays a card, there is another Nation which has a card, then, the Impulses continue until there is an Impulse in which the last Nation to have a card plays a card.

In Donald's example above, I believe play would continue after France plays its second-to-last card, because when it plays the card, it is not the last Nation with a card. Britain still has a card. Next, since Britain used its card as a Response, each of the eight cardless Nations has an Impulse in which it could play a Resource to draw a card, or play a Reserve, lay Siege, or Pass. Finally, if France is still the last Nation with a card, the Impulses end when it plays its card.

The rules do not say that the Impulses end at the end of the Impulse of the last Nation to have card(s). They say the Impulses continue until the last Nation to have a card(s) plays a card. (Unless that card causes a card draw(s) for other Nations, in which case the Impulses continue.) I argue it's the condition at the beginning of the Nation's Impulse which determines whether it is the last Impulse, the End of the Impulses.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

There's a distinction between "end of Turn" and "end of Impulses." Donald describes above the end of the Impulses, i.e., the end of the play of cards, Reserves, Resources, and Sieges.

Rule 5.1 (paragraph 4) and Rule 5.5, "End of Impulses" cause confusion where they read, "The Turn will end after that Nation takes its Impulse." It's really just the Impulses which end, not the Turn.

After the end of the Impulses the Turn continues with attrition, card bids to modify the peace die roll, the peace die roll itself, reinforcements and deployments.

The new Turn (1807, 1809, 1811, etc.) does not begin until new cards are dealt. Therefore the new leaders (such as Bluecher) which are available beginning in the new Turn cannot be built until the new cards are dealt. They cannot be built with the 1805 Turn's reinforcements.
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Donald Everett
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I can only direct you to page five in the rules. Glossary entry:

Quote:
Turn: A period in which nations receive new Hands and, in Order of Movement, alternate play of their cards during Scheduled or preemptive Impulses. A Turn lasts until the last nation with a card finishes an Impulse (5).


Regards,

-Donald
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John Griffey
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So, the Glossary expresses the rule differently than the rules do. The rules do not say the last-nation-holding-a-card condition is checked at the end of the nation's most recent Impulse. They imply that the condition is checked at the start of the Impulse--that's my intuitive understanding of the rules.

It's possible the Glossary entry above was carelessly written without consideration of the possibility you gave in your example. In that example, France plays a card when it is not the only nation with a card, but ends the resulting Impulse as the only nation with a card.

However I'm 60% convinced now that your are right, so I'm going to use your interpretation of the rule.

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Chris Montgomery
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AnimalMother wrote:
However I'm 60% convinced now that your are right, so I'm going to use your interpretation of the rule.


The most recent edition of the rules (1.3f) is consistent between the Glossary and Section 5. Consistently ambiguous. The FAQ is silent. I would appreciate a clarification as to the example above, and I'll e-mail GMT about this.

But I tend to agree with dgeverett, too.
 
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Chris Montgomery
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Per the designer, the example as stated by Donald Everett is correct.

The rationale is that you implement the condition for Turn End instantly upon its satisfaction (and the conclusion of the current impulse, of course).

Moreover, the concept is that this limits the ability of players who have saved their resource and/or reserves from getting a "free shot" to play them, as it were - going through the entire impulse order again would unnecessarily (and perhaps unfairly) allow many powers to play reserves and resources that they had saved. The idea with the reserves was to allow them to saved from impulse to impulse to minimize players with large hands from beating up on players with nothing - the downside is that you might end up having the reserves wasted by waiting too long and having the turn end, as the example illustrates.

Cheers!
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Greg Wardle
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Here is an example that is slightly different, and I don't see how the aforementioned solution applies. France and Britain each have a card, and Denmark has a Reserve. Britain plays its card, and now France is the only nation left with a card. Rule 5.5 says, "This sequence continues until only one Nation has unplayed card(s) remaining. The turn will end after *that* Nation takes its Impulse." So what happens now?

A) Continue cycling through the turn order, giving Denmark a chance to play its Reserve, and then France plays its card.

B) Impulses end immediately. Denmark doesn't get to play its Reserve, and France holds on to its card for next turn.

C) We immediately skip to France without going through the turn order (since it is the last nation with a card), and France plays its card.
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Chris Montgomery
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I believe "A" is the correct answer for your hypo - but perhaps some other players might chime in.
 
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Jeff Kinney
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My thinking is it cycles until Denmark plays it's reserve then everything resets. France would play it's card, then it would go back to Denmark. If nothing else happens it ends after Denmark plays it's card. At least that is my understanding.
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Greg Wardle
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Just to clarify, Denmark has no cards, just its reserve. Don't know if that might changer your answers.
 
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Chris Montgomery
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If you follow the rule as set forth above, you check after each card play - as soon as only one nation has cards left, the turn ends when that nation *finishes an impulse*.

The original example was France has two cards, England has one card. France plays a card, and England plays a card during France's impulse. Since during the impulse, France became the last nation with a card, when France finished its impulse, that ended the Turn.

In the most recent example, France has two cards, England has one card. Here, England did *not* play a card during France's impulse, so at the end of France's impulse, England and France still have cards left. When England plays a card and finishes it's impulse, France is the only nation with cards left, and so the turn will end once France finishes an impulse. Because of that, you go through all the other nations, giving Denmark one last chance to play its reserve or not - when it gets to France again, France must play, and at the end of that impulse, the turn will end.

I believe "A" is the correct answer. Reserves are not cards.
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Greg Wardle
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Thanks Jeff and Chris, it makes sense to me now.
 
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