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Subject: "+1 die" and Dual weapons rss

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Thiago Aranha
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How are people handling their rolls when they have acquired one of the "+1 die: Combat" (or Melee, or Ranged) skills, and they also have Dual weapons in hand? Do you:

A: Add 1 die to the dice value of each weapon, resulting in a 2-dice increase to the attack action as a whole.

B: Add just 1 die to the entire attack action.
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John T
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Loophole Master wrote:
How are people handling their rolls when they have acquired one of the "+1 die: Combat" (or Melee, or Ranged) skills, and they also have Dual weapons in hand? Do you:

A: Add 1 die to the dice value of each weapon, resulting in a 2-dice increase to the attack action as a whole.

B: Add just 1 die to the entire attack action.


I haven't encountered this yet but I would just add one die to the entire attack action, personally.
 
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CJ Kucera
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Loophole Master wrote:
How are people handling their rolls when they have acquired one of the "+1 die: Combat" (or Melee, or Ranged) skills, and they also have Dual weapons in hand?

The skill just lets you add one die to your combat action, which only happens to be a dual-wield weapon. You'd just add the one extra die, not two.
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Lunar Sol
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B: +1 die to the entire attack action

The temptation for A was there, but there's really nothing in the rules to support it. Dual weapons are generally powerful enough as is anyway. This power is a nice way to add to things like the Rifle or baseball bat.

Generally speaking, I find the orange decision to be based on how the character is equipped at that point. Certain characters tend to always go one way or another, but there are several where the weapons equipped change the decision instead.
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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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LunarSol wrote:
B: +1 die to the entire attack action

The temptation for A was there, but there's really nothing in the rules to support it. Dual weapons are generally powerful enough as is anyway. This power is a nice way to add to things like the Rifle or baseball bat.

Generally speaking, I find the orange decision to be based on how the character is equipped at that point. Certain characters tend to always go one way or another, but there are several where the weapons equipped change the decision instead.


+1
 
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Adam Starks
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I wrote up a handy little python script that spits out the attack stats depending on your weapon, whether you're dual wielding, and any bonuses to dice or rolls. Assuming that the additional die only applies to the attack itself and not to each weapon (which seems to be the consensus), inaccurate dual weapons will tend to benefit slightly more from the roll bonus than the die bonus anyways (though Ambidextrous can lead to some extreme differences, like with the baseball bat or the chainsaw).

Compare Dual Machetes:

0 Bonus Dice, 0 Bonus to Roll, Avg 1 hit per attack
Chance of 1+ hits: 0.75
Chance of 2 hits: 0.25

1 Bonus Die, 0 Bonus to Roll, Avg 1.5 hits per attack
Chance of 1+ hits: 0.875
Chance of 2+ hits: 0.5
Chance of 3 hits: 0.125

0 Bonus Dice, 1 Bonus to Roll, Avg 1.33 hits per attack
Chance of 1+ hits: 0.88
Chance of 2 hits: 0.44

with Dual Uzis:

0 Bonus Dice, 0 Bonus to Roll, Avg 2 hits per attack
Chance of 1+ hits: 0.912
Chance of 2+ hits: 0.649
Chance of 3+ hits: 0.320
Chance of 4+ hits: 0.100
Chance of 5+ hits: 0.018
Chance of 6 hits: 0.001

1 Bonus Die, 0 Bonus to Roll, Avg 2.333 hits per attack
Chance of 1+ hits: 0.941
Chance of 2+ hits: 0.737
Chance of 3+ hits: 0.429
Chance of 4+ hits: 0.173
Chance of 5+ hits: 0.045
Chance of 6+ hits: 0.006
Chance of 7 hits: 0.0005

0 Bonus Dice, 1 Bonus to Roll, Avg 3.0 hits per attack
Chance of 1+ hits: 0.984
Chance of 2+ hits: 0.891
Chance of 3+ hits: 0.656
Chance of 4+ hits: 0.344
Chance of 5+ hits: 0.109
Chance of 6 hits: 0.016
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Julien Le Jeune
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So it's better to take an additional dice rather than the +1 to roll thing?
 
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Gael TACHE
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AdamStarks wrote:
...stats...


What is the point to calculate more than 2 hits ?
With Dual weapon you can only hit 2 zombies maximum... All other die who could hit are just increasing odds's success.
 
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Thiago Aranha
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Garshell wrote:
With Dual weapon you can only hit 2 zombies maximum... All other die who could hit are just increasing odds's success.

Uh, what? I think you've got something wrong. As long as there are zombies in the attacked zone, you respect the targeting priority list and your weapon deals enough damage, you can kill as many zombies as you get hit results. Ambidextrous survivors wielding dual chainsaws could kill 10 zombies with a single attack action.
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Adam Starks
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Oops, I forgot to actually make the smg's dual. I've edited the above post, and it's now much clearer that the bonus to the roll is better than the bonus to the dice.

In fact, looking at the stats for some other weapons when you're dual-wielding, the bonus to the roll is almost always the clear winner. The only exception is Machetes, where the advantage from the extra die only slightly wins out, and bats/rifles, which you can only dual wield if you have Ambidextrous.

But when you're not dual wielding, the bonus die is almost always better. The exceptions are with the smg and the chainsaw.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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I did some similar calculations here back in May... except I assumed you could only damage one target regardless of how many dice were successful (that is, I was calculating for at least one success).

In short, +1 to dice roll will usually give you a slightly higher probability of hitting at least one target (compared to +1 die), while +1 die will give you a significantly higher probability of hitting more than one target (but slightly lower probability of hitting at least one target than +1 to die roll)... unless you have LOTS of dice already, in which case +1 to dice roll is going to result in a high probability of a lot of hits.
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Thiago Aranha
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Seems like it's working how it should, then. The choice should certainly be between a certainty of a single hit versus possibility of greater carnage. If one of the options was all-around better, it would be pointless.
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Adam Starks
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If you're not dual-wielding, almost all weapons clearly benefit from the extra die. Where the roll bonus gives better chances of at least one hit than the die bonus, it's almost always a difference on the order of a few percentiles (like 85% vs 88%), while the difference in the average number of hits is much higher (like 1.67 to 2.0). The only real exceptions are the smg and the chainsaw.

So it's not that the roll bonus provides better chances of at least a single hit, but that the roll bonus is better if you plan on dual-wielding.
 
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