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Subject: Three Dimensions? rss

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SIMON WRAY
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Does this game do anything to represent the third dimension/axis of space? or is it simply a flat battlefield?
 
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David Boeren
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100% flat
 
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Revenant wrote:
Does this game do anything to represent the third dimension/axis of space? or is it simply a flat battlefield?

Flat battlefield but the fact you can "fly through" other ships and there is no blocking LOS from the ships is a small nod to the 3D space.
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Bernd Caspers
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dboeren wrote:
100% flat


Like the dreaded Imperial Death Plate!
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Matthew Rooks
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In a GenCon session report, I thought I read of two TIE fighters crashing into and destroying one another. Is this possible?
 
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jigmelingpa wrote:
In a GenCon session report, I thought I read of two TIE fighters crashing into and destroying one another. Is this possible?


Almost positive that was in one of FFG's daily GenCon reports posted on YouTube.
 
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SIMON WRAY
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Ok, thanks for the responses.
 
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Todd Warnken
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jigmelingpa wrote:
In a GenCon session report, I thought I read of two TIE fighters crashing into and destroying one another. Is this possible?


No. It is possible to hit an asteroid and blow up.
 
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Eric B.
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Mundane wrote:
jigmelingpa wrote:
In a GenCon session report, I thought I read of two TIE fighters crashing into and destroying one another. Is this possible?


No. It is possible to hit an asteroid and blow up.



Well, not quite. If a ship has the damage card "Stunned Pilot" (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/1395817/star-wars-x-wing-...), then they take damage when they overlap another ship.

So, in this somewhat rare circumstance, a ship could run into another ship and blow itself up (though the ship it runs into would be fine and unscathed--presumably just a glancing blow or it fires a quick point-blank shot into the ship to prevent the collision from the stunned pilot).
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Steven R
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There is no up or down in space...it's all relative. Games such as Wings of War need to simulate gravity and wind flow over wings for simulated accuracy...X Wing doesn't need to do this.

Of course battles like Hoth...??? Hm. AT AT??
 
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Martin Larouche
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swr66 wrote:
There is no up or down in space...it's all relative. Games such as Wings of War need to simulate gravity and wind flow over wings for simulated accuracy...X Wing doesn't need to do this.

Of course battles like Hoth...??? Hm. AT AT??


but for the fact that ships in Star Wars don't maneuver in real "space" but in some kind of "ether".
- They behave exactly like conventional planes in atmosphere.
- The "ether" conveys the sound of explosions.
- You can go outside your ship in space with just a breath mask.

Without the 3D, you maneuver capital spaceships like they were boats of the ocean. Without the 3D and vectorial movement, you maneuver fighters like speed boats on water.

The 3D is extremely important in space, even if you don't really have an "up" or "down". On a 2D projection of a 3D space, your opponent might look right next to you, but he might actually be very "high" or "low" meaning he might actually be the fartest from you.

But then, having actual real 3D vectorial movement, you end up with games like Attack Vector: Tactical: they are mathematical exercises and take a very long time to play. Definitely not for everyone. X-Wing looks much more fun in comparison.
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Charlie Theel
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I don't think the 3-D is needed as long as the game stays true to its roots of dogfighting. If they try to incorporate bigger and bigger ships you will need some sort of 3-D movement to simulate weaving in and out of their firing arcs.

I enjoy the altitude rules in Wings of War but find them cumbersome. They are needed, however, when using 2-Seaters if you want gameplay to mimic reality even in the slightest.
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Tony Rowe
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deedob wrote:
swr66 wrote:
There is no up or down in space...it's all relative. Games such as Wings of War need to simulate gravity and wind flow over wings for simulated accuracy...X Wing doesn't need to do this.

but for the fact that ships in Star Wars don't maneuver in real "space" but in some kind of "ether".
- They behave exactly like conventional planes in atmosphere.
- The "ether" conveys the sound of explosions.
- You can go outside your ship in space with just a breath mask.


Correct, Star Wars spaceships fly like WWII fighters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-HuenDPZw0#t=4m54s

Plodding, slow, silent, vector-based movement through space (like scenes in 2001: A Space Odyssey) just doesn't have the energy and excitement that a Star Wars dogfight requires. George Lucas knew this and specifically based his starfighter battles on WWII air battles.

Thus, an X-wing should fly as if it has air flowing over its s-foils to maneuver. It should have to fight the effects of gravity when flying over a space station. It should behave unrealistically for a spacecraft. Otherwise, this isn't a Star Wars simulation.


How does sound carry through space? In the NPR Star Wars radio drama, Han Solo explains this phenomenon when teaching Luke how to use the Falcon's gun turrets as they escape the Death Star.

HAN: "Your sensors'll give you an audio simulation for a rough idea of where those fighters are when they're not on your screen. It'll sound like they're right there in the turret with you."

Later in the fight, he reaffirms this function:

HAN: "Pay attention to your audio and pick 'em up on their approach runs, Luke!"

So, all the sounds you hear are audio simulations generated by targeting computers as an alternate feedback system to let the user know the locations of targets that are out of sight.
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Martin Larouche
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Hawklord wrote:

Correct, Star Wars spaceships fly like WWII fighters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-HuenDPZw0#t=4m54s

Plodding, slow, silent, vector-based movement through space (like scenes in 2001: A Space Odyssey) just doesn't have the energy and excitement that a Star Wars dogfight requires. George Lucas knew this and specifically based his starfighter battles on WWII air battles.


3D vector-based movement does not necessarilly means 2001: Space Odyssey "slow without energy". Think Babylon 5 if you ever watched that show. There's some very dynamic vector based 3D fighting there...

The footage of dogfights in the original Star Wars are directly taken from real WWII dogfight footage, almost frame by frame. They just changed P-51s for X-Wings...
The real reason why Lucas went atmospheric is that in 1977, not a lot of people would've understood "how can airplanes work like that?" They had little general knowledge of space physics in those days.

Even when Babylon 5 was aired and i showed some space battles to people(they were breathtaking at the time), lots of times i was told that this was not realistic and that it's impossible to move like that... when in fact it's about one of the most accurate sci-fi show ever made physics-wise (even if it's far from 100% accurate).

Hawklord wrote:

Thus, an X-wing should fly as if it has air flowing over its s-foils to maneuver. It should have to fight the effects of gravity when flying over a space station. It should behave unrealistically for a spacecraft. Otherwise, this isn't a Star Wars simulation.


How does sound carry through space? In the NPR Star Wars radio drama, Han Solo explains this phenomenon when teaching Luke how to use the Falcon's gun turrets as they escape the Death Star.

HAN: "Your sensors'll give you an audio simulation for a rough idea of where those fighters are when they're not on your screen. It'll sound like they're right there in the turret with you."

Later in the fight, he reaffirms this function:

HAN: "Pay attention to your audio and pick 'em up on their approach runs, Luke!"

So, all the sounds you hear are audio simulations generated by targeting computers as an alternate feedback system to let the user know the locations of targets that are out of sight.


Nice explanation. It still doesn't explain why there's actually explosions in the first place... A ship wouldn't explode in space. It would, at best, implode. Fire is also extremely unlikely. There's some kind of gas in Star Wars space and that's what mostly explains everything.

But we all know the real reason why there's sound and explosions is because it looks prettier on the screen and is more "dynamic" - as you say. It's just like shooting a single bullet in a car can make it explode in most movies. Not realistic, but way more fun to watch.
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Bernd Caspers
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Star Wars doesn´t care about physics and since it would neither benefit the storytelling nor the excitment, it´s a good thing.
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Andrea Angiolino
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Designing my system, I had several goals: technical and historical details should be "embedded" in the system so that accuracy should have not made basic rules longer to learn nor basic game flow more difficult; the game sghluld scale well with the number of players (there have been game sessions with 80 or even 92 people at the same table); plenty of optional rules could be added to details any aspect of the simulated setting if players wanted to.
A study of some of the most succesful systems confirmed that even some good dogfight games left altitude rules out. For example, Ace of Aces had them as optional, while the first edition of Blue Max totally avoided them even if it was a quite more complicated system than basic WoW.
So I decided to design this system as a flat one: Both Wings of War: Famous Aces and Wings of War: Watch Your Back! were released with a common rulebook without altitude rules. This would made for a more agile and immediate system, easier to learn and more steamlined for mass combats. Only the third box, Wings of War: Burning Drachens, introduced ground targets, AA guns, balloons and then altitude rules.
I personally still use them only for some scenarios where they are more meaningful than usual.
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Derry Salewski
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There's also the force. Just in case we wondered if the rules of physics in that galaxy are the same as our own . . .
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Guido Gloor
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scifiantihero wrote:
There's also the force. Just in case we wondered if the rules of physics in that galaxy are the same as our own . . .

What, you've never experienced the force yet? Just you watch me lift my X-Wing out of that swamp!
 
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haslo wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
There's also the force. Just in case we wondered if the rules of physics in that galaxy are the same as our own . . .

What, you've never experienced the force yet? Just you watch me lift my X-Wing out of that swamp!


The force does exist!

It's just that all the midichlorians on the earth have been used to preserve Walt Disney's body in his frozen carbonite state.
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angiolillo wrote:
Designing my system, I had several goals: technical and historical details should be "embedded" in the system so that accuracy should have not made basic rules longer to learn nor basic game flow more difficult; the game sghluld scale well with the number of players (there have been game sessions with 80 or even 92 people at the same table); plenty of optional rules could be added to details any aspect of the simulated setting if players wanted to.
A study of some of the most succesful systems confirmed that even some good dogfight games left altitude rules out. For example, Ace of Aces had them as optional, while the first edition of Blue Max totally avoided them even if it was a quite more complicated system than basic WoW.
So I decided to design this system as a flat one: Both Wings of War: Famous Aces and Wings of War: Watch Your Back! were released with a common rulebook without altitude rules. This would made for a more agile and immediate system, easier to learn and more steamlined for mass combats. Only the third box, Wings of War: Burning Drachens, introduced ground targets, AA guns, balloons and then altitude rules.
I personally still use them only for some scenarios where they are more meaningful than usual.


And I think you accomplished those goals perfectly. I prefer not to use the altitude rules if we're going my Fokker versus your Sopwithe, but when you start tossing in 2-seaters and balloons then I personally think they're mandatory. They're also not terribly complicated, they just slow the pace down slightly.
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