Bryce K. Nielsen
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So the FAQ that just came out states that in order to interrupt a movement action, you have to place the large monster on empty spaces (which answers the question if you can attack while in the space of another figure. But when can you interrupt movement? At any time voluntarily? Only for another action (such as attack or open door)? And when you start you movement back up, can you begin in any space of the large monster, just like you could at the start of his movement?

The other question we have with Large Monsters is how Nimble is applied. When the large monster shrinks down, and moves adjacent to a Wildlander with Nimble, can the Nimble hero move into a space that makes it impossible for the large creature to expand?

We had a chain reaction with Cave Spiders, who have a speed of 4, on the 2nd move, it moved adjacent to a Nimble hero but would not have been able to 'expand' due to spacing. If the hero wasn't Nimble, the spider would have continued moving and eventually expanded past the Nimbler. But since the Hero could Nimble, she moved ahead of the spider. The spider moved again, and was again adjacent to the Nimbler. She nimbled ahead again. Then the last movement was adjacent, so the Nimbler moved again. This time, it put it in a position where the spider could not expand. So here's the paradox. The Nimbler could not move to its space blocking the spider's "expansion" if the spider had not moved there in the first place.

I think I saw a response somewhere that said the spider should expand right before the nimbler nimbles away. But what if there's no room to expand in that exact space and the large creature was just 'passing through'? Does this make the nimbler able to block large creature movement?

-shnar
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Adam Baumeister
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I think the most reasonable way of adjudicating that one is to have the monster expand AS it moves into a space.

That way, if the monster is intending to move to that space, the Wildlander is responding to the occupation of the entire space.

If the monster is "simply passing through", then the problem is resolved.
 
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Frank Franco
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As the monster expands it squashes the nibler into the wall.
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Kelly Overholser
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I would say, if the movement becomes illegal in the middle of movement (either because the monster becomes immobilized or because the heroes changed positions), the overlord may choose to cause the monster to end movement at any point. The monser expands and displaces any figures in the spaces it expands into; it must choose a position that displaces as few figures as possible. Each displaced figure must be moved to the closest empty square; if both heroes and monsters are displaced, the heroes choose which squares their figures are moved to first.

If a large monster expands and displaces figures, the monster is then immobilized, and cannot continue to make any other movements this turn.
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Bryann Turner
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Sethala wrote:
I would say, if the movement becomes illegal in the middle of movement (either because the monster becomes immobilized or because the heroes changed positions), the overlord may choose to cause the monster to end movement at any point. The monser expands and displaces any figures in the spaces it expands into; it must choose a position that displaces as few figures as possible. Each displaced figure must be moved to the closest empty square; if both heroes and monsters are displaced, the heroes choose which squares their figures are moved to first.

If a large monster expands and displaces figures, the monster is then immobilized, and cannot continue to make any other movements this turn.


Or you could not rewrite the whole movement rules and just say that Large Monsters do not need to expand in response to Nimble. It's not really an interrupt, anyway, more of a reaction. An interrupt would be something like Guard.

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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Rubberchrist wrote:
I think the most reasonable way of adjudicating that one is to have the monster expand AS it moves into a space.

That way, if the monster is intending to move to that space, the Wildlander is responding to the occupation of the entire space.

If the monster is "simply passing through", then the problem is resolved.

The problem with this is there are cases where the monster couldn't legally expand, but could legally 'pass through', so this makes Nimble too powerful...

-shnar
 
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Chadwick VonVeederVeld
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hey shnar, I posted this on another thread you were commenting on....

just curious if I am playing Large monster movement wrong

vonveederveld wrote:
I guess I am confused how a paradox could even arise

the rulebook states "The monster is only considered to have entered the one space to which it ended its movement."
PG 16 "Larger Monsters"

so the dragon would move to space three, expand, and then nimble could be triggered...

am I wrong in how I understand Large Monster Movement?


yeah, think I am wrong about large monster movement....
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Here's an image somewhat describing the situation:



The dragon wants to move 1, 2, 3. On #2, the Nimbler moves south one square. The dragon has no more legal squares to move to and still expand. So his movement is illegal, but only because Nimble happened. Had he not moved there, Nimble wouldn't have happened and his movement would be legal.

A paradox, a most ingenious paradox...

-shnar
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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I should note this isn't a "hypothetical" situation. This actually happened in our first campaign on that map (the 1st encounter of the one with the guy who call militia forward, Castle Darion?). It's been a while, so my memory is foggy, but the result was the nimbler kept jumping in front of the large creature to make his 'expansion' impossible.

-shnar
 
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Triu Greykith
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I'm not sure it's a paradox, but it is a bit of a conundrum. Other abilities triggered by monster movement also seem to raise issues with large monster expansion.

I had a similar discussion in another thread with slightly different specifics, but the same general result. Nimble normally lets the Wildlander dodge away/around a monster. In these cases it's working more like the hero's version of Tripwire. In game terms the hero spent a fatigue to block the monster's movement. Thematically, pretend that the wily Wilder rigged a deadfall that drove the dragon back.
ninja
 
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Couldn't one apply the rule that the dragon is placed in the nearest possible space (as is done in other circumstances)?
In this case, nimble would make it move just south of Tumble and, paradoxically, give it an additional square of movement...
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Kelly Overholser
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If the spaces behind where Tomble moved to were also blocked, so that there's no place in that room the dragon can expand to, it basically forces the dragon back to its start point, causing the overlord to completely waste an action (which can be pretty punishing if the dragon didn't start close enough to anyone to attack them).

It hasn't come up yet in my games (no one's really used Nimble much yet), but I can come up with two different solutions that don't let the heroes completely hose the overlord:

1. Nimble simply can't be used to block a monster's expansion. The monster always has to have a legal place to move to after the nimble.

This fixes Nimble, but not Caltrops. For Caltrops I would go with the monster going to the nearest legal place it can expand, since if it happens when the monster just started its movement, it's fine for the heroes to block it back a few spaces (since that's kind of what Caltrops does), but if it moves a long distance to get to the heroes, it's still close to them since the destination is probably closer than the start.

2. If a large monster's movement becomes impossible, it expands where it is, ignoring figures (but not obstacles). Any figures in the same space as the monster are displaced, and moved to the nearest empty space (heroes first, with the hero players picking where they get moved to; overlord's minions last, with the overlord picking where they get moved to). If there's no way for the monster to expand where it is and not end up on an obstacle, it expands in the closest possible space, again ignoring figures. The monster is then immobilized.

Basically, if you try to jump in front of a dragon, it just swats you aside. The immobilize at the end just means that you can't decide you want to stop moving to do something and then continue moving after forcing other figures away from you.
 
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Triu Greykith
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I just spent an encounter where after the first turn I did nothing but Stand Up actions because the OL effectively blocked my hero's movement & zerged him every round. I don't have much sympathy right now for an OL who lost one action. cry

The heroes have one (and maybe a familiar) figure to activate each round. The OL has lots. If there is a hero with an inconvenient skill in your way, you just have to deal with it. It's not like these skills say "take away a hostile figures turn whenever you want". Their use is very situational.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Sethala wrote:
If the spaces behind where Tomble moved to were also blocked, so that there's no place in that room the dragon can expand to, it basically forces the dragon back to its start point, causing the overlord to completely waste an action (which can be pretty punishing if the dragon didn't start close enough to anyone to attack them).

Tomble didn't Nimble into the room until the dragon moved to space #2, so the dragon doesn't have enough movement points to move *anywhere* he can expand in...

-shnar
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Okay, I think (with the help from VonVeederVeld) I have come up with a solution supported by the rules/FAQ/Adam Sadler.

I vaguely recall someone asking a similar question to Adam this issue, and his response was that the movement is interrupted so the large monster must expand in order for the Wildlander to use Nimble.

With that in mind, the rules state, "if the monster cannot fit its entire base on the map, then it cannot end (or interrupt) its movement in that space." This would mean that if the monster is interrupted by Nimble, before Nimble happens, the figure must be placed. If the figure cannot be placed, it cannot be interrupted.

So in the example I gave, when the dragon moves to space #2 and Tomble wants to use Nimble, the Shadow Dragon must be placed. Since it cannot be placed, Tomble is unable to use Nimble. When the dragon moves to space #3, the dragon can be placed, and now Tomble can use Nimble.

-shnar
 
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shnar wrote:
Okay, I think (with the help from VonVeederVeld) I have come up with a solution supported by the rules/FAQ/Adam Sadler.

I vaguely recall someone asking a similar question to Adam this issue, and his response was that the movement is interrupted so the large monster must expand in order for the Wildlander to use Nimble.

With that in mind, the rules state, "if the monster cannot fit its entire base on the map, then it cannot end (or interrupt) its movement in that space." This would mean that if the monster is interrupted by Nimble, before Nimble happens, the figure must be placed. If the figure cannot be placed, it cannot be interrupted.

So in the example I gave, when the dragon moves to space #2 and Tomble wants to use Nimble, the Shadow Dragon must be placed. Since it cannot be placed, Tomble is unable to use Nimble. When the dragon moves to space #3, the dragon can be placed, and now Tomble can use Nimble.

-shnar


http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/855081/official-response-fro...
Now with official clarification
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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slacks wrote:

One-off responses from support staff are to be taken with grains of salt (WotC is notoriously bad at this, but even FFG screws up, at the Days of Terrinoth event, one was questioned if Stun lost a whole turn and the answer was yes). I'd wait until an official FAQ has been released, which is usually given more peer review.

-shnar
 
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Joshua Siegfried
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A response to the 'rules questions' form on their website seems a bit more compelling than random-support-guy-12 at an event. Unless I'm mistaken, the people responding to the rules questions form are usually part of the design team. Adam Sadler has responded personally to all of my questions. That's not to say they won't change their minds, but I think it's safe to put the salt shaker away.
 
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