Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
11 Posts

Advanced Squad Leader: Starter Kit #2» Forums » Rules

Subject: DFPh and Cowering questions revisited rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Erez Ben-Aharon
Australia
Civic Square
ACT
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Ok this might seem a bit trivial but I often pass by the DFPh rules but someone ask me a question in a FTF game which led me to reread the section and I started to question some of my assumptions (always a good think in ASL, isn't it?

1) 3.4 says "A unit marked with First Fire has its and its WEAPON's FP halved..."

A) Does that mean that a MG that has NOT D1F (no First Fire marker) will STILL fire half FP in the DFPh (because his possessing unit has D1F?)

That seems to counter the idea that if you never had the D1F marker and fire by yourself (whether you are a unit or a weapon) you fire at full FP.

B) If A is correct - does the MG (assuming that is the possessed weapon) just fire at half FP or does it also sustain fire?!? (with all the implication that entails).

C) If A is correct - what about other weapons (ordnance SW such as Bazooka's for example), will it lose half its FP after securing a TH?

2) 3.2.2 mentions about cowering "Whenever...rolls original doubles...it cowers...and results in the cowering unit being market with a Prep Fire or Final Fire (as appropriate)." NO MENTION of the unit's possessed WEAPONS (unlike 3.3.3 which mentions that for SFF "Flip the First Fire counter to its Final Fire side for the manning unit and ALL ITS WEAPONS".

This seem to suggest that SW can be fired after its possessing unit has fired (I'm sure this is not the case for SW MG, but what about SW Ordnance such as Bazooka? - if the unit cowers, can the bazooka still fire if it had not fired before (especially since it cannot FG with its possessing unit)?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erez Ben-Aharon
Australia
Civic Square
ACT
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Another thing also occurred to me (although I believe is just an omission) is that there is nothing in 3.4 (DFPh) that states that
when an unmarked unit fires it gets a Final Fire marker; instead it says "...that are marked with a First Fire counter may also fire again, but only at units in the same or an adjacent hex, and they must then flip the First Fire counter to its Final Fire side".

So the stipulation exists for First Fired units, but not for unmarked units.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eddy del Rio
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Ok this might seem a bit trivial but I often pass by the DFPh rules but someone ask me a question in a FTF game which led me to reread the section and I started to question some of my assumptions (always a good think in ASL, isn't it?

1) 3.4 says "A unit marked with First Fire has its and its WEAPON's FP halved..."

A) Does that mean that a MG that has NOT D1F (no First Fire marker) will STILL fire half FP in the DFPh (because his possessing unit has D1F?)

That seems to counter the idea that if you never had the D1F marker and fire by yourself (whether you are a unit or a weapon) you fire at full FP.

B) If A is correct - does the MG (assuming that is the possessed weapon) just fire at half FP or does it also sustain fire?!? (with all the implication that entails).

C) If A is correct - what about other weapons (ordnance SW such as Bazooka's for example), will it lose half its FP after securing a TH?

Seek
http://home.comcast.net/~tomrepetti/misc/FFflowchartv3.1.PDF
and ye shall find.

All your questions on this subject are flow-charted at the above link.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eddy del Rio
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
abeheron wrote:
Another thing also occurred to me (although I believe is just an omission) is that there is nothing in 3.4 (DFPh) that states that
when an unmarked unit fires it gets a Final Fire marker; instead it says "...that are marked with a First Fire counter may also fire again, but only at units in the same or an adjacent hex, and they must then flip the First Fire counter to its Final Fire side".

So the stipulation exists for First Fired units, but not for unmarked units.

See the adjacent "Synopsis of Final Fire," No.2 last line.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eddy del Rio
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
2) 3.2.2 mentions about cowering "Whenever...rolls original doubles...it cowers...and results in the cowering unit being market with a Prep Fire or Final Fire (as appropriate)." NO MENTION of the unit's possessed WEAPONS (unlike 3.3.3 which mentions that for SFF "Flip the First Fire counter to its Final Fire side for the manning unit and ALL ITS WEAPONS".

This seem to suggest that SW can be fired after its possessing unit has fired (I'm sure this is not the case for SW MG, but what about SW Ordnance such as Bazooka? - if the unit cowers, can the bazooka still fire if it had not fired before (especially since it cannot FG with its possessing unit)?
Weapons don't cower; only soldiers do.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erez Ben-Aharon
Australia
Civic Square
ACT
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
edelrio wrote:
Quote:
Ok this might seem a bit trivial but I often pass by the DFPh rules but someone ask me a question in a FTF game which led me to reread the section and I started to question some of my assumptions (always a good think in ASL, isn't it?

1) 3.4 says "A unit marked with First Fire has its and its WEAPON's FP halved..."

A) Does that mean that a MG that has NOT D1F (no First Fire marker) will STILL fire half FP in the DFPh (because his possessing unit has D1F?)

That seems to counter the idea that if you never had the D1F marker and fire by yourself (whether you are a unit or a weapon) you fire at full FP.

B) If A is correct - does the MG (assuming that is the possessed weapon) just fire at half FP or does it also sustain fire?!? (with all the implication that entails).

C) If A is correct - what about other weapons (ordnance SW such as Bazooka's for example), will it lose half its FP after securing a TH?

Seek
http://home.comcast.net/~tomrepetti/misc/FFflowchartv3.1.PDF
and ye shall find.

All your questions on this subject are flow-charted at the above link.


Eddy, it's a great chart and have used it many times in the past, but it doesn't help in this specific case as I was asking about DFPh specifically (and not MPh/D1F/SFF/FPF).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erez Ben-Aharon
Australia
Civic Square
ACT
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
edelrio wrote:
abeheron wrote:
Another thing also occurred to me (although I believe is just an omission) is that there is nothing in 3.4 (DFPh) that states that
when an unmarked unit fires it gets a Final Fire marker; instead it says "...that are marked with a First Fire counter may also fire again, but only at units in the same or an adjacent hex, and they must then flip the First Fire counter to its Final Fire side".

So the stipulation exists for First Fired units, but not for unmarked units.

See the adjacent "Synopsis of Final Fire," No.2 last line.


Where can I find Synopsis of Final Fire?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erez Ben-Aharon
Australia
Civic Square
ACT
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
edelrio wrote:
Quote:
2) 3.2.2 mentions about cowering "Whenever...rolls original doubles...it cowers...and results in the cowering unit being market with a Prep Fire or Final Fire (as appropriate)." NO MENTION of the unit's possessed WEAPONS (unlike 3.3.3 which mentions that for SFF "Flip the First Fire counter to its Final Fire side for the manning unit and ALL ITS WEAPONS".

This seem to suggest that SW can be fired after its possessing unit has fired (I'm sure this is not the case for SW MG, but what about SW Ordnance such as Bazooka? - if the unit cowers, can the bazooka still fire if it had not fired before (especially since it cannot FG with its possessing unit)?
Weapons don't cower; only soldiers do.


Eddy,

I was under the impresion that only Ordnance, IFE and/or Vehicle fire don't cower (as per Cowring definition), whereas MG fire does and will cower, am I missing something?

In any case, the question was about the MMC cowering - it states to put a Final Fire marker on the MMC, but then what is the status of the weapon he carries and is there a difference in that status between a MG and Ordnance SW (such as Bazooka).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eddy del Rio
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
abeheron wrote:
edelrio wrote:
abeheron wrote:
Another thing also occurred to me (although I believe is just an omission) is that there is nothing in 3.4 (DFPh) that states that
when an unmarked unit fires it gets a Final Fire marker; instead it says "...that are marked with a First Fire counter may also fire again, but only at units in the same or an adjacent hex, and they must then flip the First Fire counter to its Final Fire side".

So the stipulation exists for First Fired units, but not for unmarked units.

See the adjacent "Synopsis of Final Fire," No.2 last line.


Where can I find Synopsis of Final Fire?
Colored side-bar in the rule book on page seven (SK1) ... but it's called "Synopsis of DEFENSIVE Fire". Sorry.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eddy del Rio
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
abeheron wrote:
edelrio wrote:
Quote:
2) 3.2.2 mentions about cowering "Whenever...rolls original doubles...it cowers...and results in the cowering unit being market with a Prep Fire or Final Fire (as appropriate)." NO MENTION of the unit's possessed WEAPONS (unlike 3.3.3 which mentions that for SFF "Flip the First Fire counter to its Final Fire side for the manning unit and ALL ITS WEAPONS".

This seem to suggest that SW can be fired after its possessing unit has fired (I'm sure this is not the case for SW MG, but what about SW Ordnance such as Bazooka? - if the unit cowers, can the bazooka still fire if it had not fired before (especially since it cannot FG with its possessing unit)?
Weapons don't cower; only soldiers do.


Eddy,

I was under the impresion that only Ordnance, IFE and/or Vehicle fire don't cower (as per Cowring definition), whereas MG fire does and will cower, am I missing something?

In any case, the question was about the MMC cowering - it states to put a Final Fire marker on the MMC, but then what is the status of the weapon he carries and is there a difference in that status between a MG and Ordnance SW (such as Bazooka).
No, you seem to have it correctly. If the unit was firing ordnance and rolled doubles, no cower. If a unit possessing ordnance fired its inherent weapons and rolled doubles, then the unit has cowered, gets the Prep/Final Fire Counter and cannot proceed to fire its possessed ordnance weapon.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erez Ben-Aharon
Australia
Civic Square
ACT
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
edelrio wrote:
abeheron wrote:
edelrio wrote:
Quote:
2) 3.2.2 mentions about cowering "Whenever...rolls original doubles...it cowers...and results in the cowering unit being market with a Prep Fire or Final Fire (as appropriate)." NO MENTION of the unit's possessed WEAPONS (unlike 3.3.3 which mentions that for SFF "Flip the First Fire counter to its Final Fire side for the manning unit and ALL ITS WEAPONS".

This seem to suggest that SW can be fired after its possessing unit has fired (I'm sure this is not the case for SW MG, but what about SW Ordnance such as Bazooka? - if the unit cowers, can the bazooka still fire if it had not fired before (especially since it cannot FG with its possessing unit)?
Weapons don't cower; only soldiers do.


Eddy,

I was under the impresion that only Ordnance, IFE and/or Vehicle fire don't cower (as per Cowring definition), whereas MG fire does and will cower, am I missing something?

In any case, the question was about the MMC cowering - it states to put a Final Fire marker on the MMC, but then what is the status of the weapon he carries and is there a difference in that status between a MG and Ordnance SW (such as Bazooka).
No, you seem to have it correctly. If the unit was firing ordnance and rolled doubles, no cower. If a unit possessing ordnance fired its inherent weapons and rolled doubles, then the unit has cowered, gets the Prep/Final Fire Counter and cannot proceed to fire its possessed ordnance weapon.


Cool, its what I thought. What about the half FP thingie in the final fire phase? If an MMC is D1F, does the unmarked MG/Bazooka/etc. fires at half FP? (and for MG - with sustained fire penalties)
what about when it fires alone or with the MMC?

Note that I am referring to the DFPh here not MPh. I already know that if it fires with the MMC at MPh it will be sustained fire (as part of SFF), but the rules about the DFPh (Final Fire) are not very detailed.
I wish there was a flow chart about DFPh as well (maybe I'll help make one )

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.