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Dominion: Dark Ages» Forums » Rules

Subject: Pedantic Question about Trashing rss

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Let's say I have a Throne Room, Feast, and Market Square in hand. I play the Throne Room and choose to play Feast twice. We know that Throne Room-ing a Feast gives two cards costing up to $5. The question is: Do you 'trash' the Feast twice, such that you can avoid revealing the Market Square the first time, but instead reveal it the second time the Feast is played? Upon playing the Feast the second time, it is already in the trash pile, so does the text "when one of your cards is trashed" actually apply here? Is it even still one of your cards? Most cards that cause trashing to occur use wording like "when you trash a card", or "each player trashes a card", but Market Square doesn't use that wording. It uses passive voice. Is this the first case where that wording could actually matter?

This question is totally pedantic. It doesn't actually matter, because you could have just revealed Market Square the first time the Feast is played. Revealing Market Square causes you to discard it, so you can't actually reveal it twice and gain two Golds.

If you really want a brain teaser, imagine that instead of a Feast, you have a Band of Misfits in hand. You play Throne Room, and then play the BoM as a Feast twice. This question has also been asked on forums, and we at least know that you don't get to choose what the BoM becomes twice. Both times that you play it, it's a Feast. But now, are you trashing the Feast once or just twice? In fact, you're trashing the BoM, because that's the physical card that ends up in the trash. Somehow the BoM conjures a clone of Feast from the supply, which the Throne Room plays twice. (It's not the actual top card from the supply that you're playing, because that might empty the pile, or reveal the next Knight, or something like that). Playing the BoM as Feast the first time trashes the physical card, removing it from play, so it returns the card to its BoM state. Yet, the Throne Room appears to refer to the conjured Feast clone, and it gets to be played again. The question is: where is this conjured Feast card at this point? Is it already in the trash, with the BoM? If the answer to the above question with the real Feast is "no, you don't get to trash the Feast again because it's already in the trash", then when I Throne Room a Band of Misfits as a Feast, then choose to not reveal the Market Square the first time it's played, can I choose to reveal the Market Square the second time this conjured Feast is 'trashed' from wherever it happens to be?

This wouldn't matter in the least, except that I happen to be implementing a software version of Dominion, and this seems like an interesting case. It also helps me understand what's "really" happening when you play Band of Misfits and other Dark Ages cards that continue to have effects after being trashed.
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David Goldfarb
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The Feast gets trashed only once. On the second play, you can't trash it because it's already in the trash -- this was established long ago with Mining Village, which yields at most +$2 when Throne Roomed or King's Courted.

When you play a Band of Misfits, it acts exactly like the card it's imitating, so Throne Rooming it as a Feast acts just like Throne Rooming a Feast does: you trash it once and get two cards costing up to $5.
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Reis
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nonrectangular wrote:
This wouldn't matter in the least, except that I happen to be implementing a software version of Dominion

Are you programming it in HTML5?
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Luce wrote:
Are you programming it in HTML5?

If you're asking if I'm from goko.com, no. I'm just an enthusiast looking to build a cool Ruby implementation and simulator.

If you're curious, it's open-source, on github, and very much a work-in-progress: https://github.com/carter-thaxton/ruby-dominion
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Reis
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nonrectangular wrote:
Luce wrote:
Are you programming it in HTML5?

If you're asking if I'm from goko.com, no. I'm just an enthusiast looking to build a cool Ruby implementation and simulator.

If you're curious, it's open-source, on github, and very much a work-in-progress: https://github.com/carter-thaxton/ruby-dominion

I was just joking around. I'm interesting in seeing what you come up with when it's done.
 
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Chris Hawks
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David Goldfarb wrote:
The Feast gets trashed only once. On the second play, you can't trash it because it's already in the trash -- this was established long ago with Mining Village

Shoot, it was established in the base game card rules.
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Nate S
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David Goldfarb wrote:
On the second play, you can't trash it because it's already in the trash

Since this is a thread about pedantry - though I think the original question actually does get at an issue that matters! even not for the specific example given - the reason you can't trash it on the second play is because it's not in the play area where it expects to be. See the "lose track" rule in the Dark Ages rulebook. On the second play Feast tries to find itself in the play area but can't (since it was moved by its own previous incarnation), so it fails to trash itself.

As an inveterate Dominion rules nerd I'm super super stoked to finally see the "lose track" rule in print
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Nick Knutsen
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Yeah, the OP makes the mistake of thinking about Throne Room as creating a clone. It doesn't. Rather the meaning of Throne Room is just to follow the card text twice (and also first putting the card into play twice which normally isn't possible).
 
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Nate S
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Way back when, I thought Throne Room wasn't able to find the card to put it in play a second time, but that's not quite right (again: pedantry!). It absolutely can find it... provided it's already in play, where Throne Room originally put it laugh i.e. if something else moved the card, Throne Room can't find it to put in play again. Which means.. if it's anywhere other than in play Throne Room can never put it back in play. Heh.
 
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Nick Knutsen
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ghorsche wrote:
Way back when, I thought Throne Room wasn't able to find the card to put it in play a second time, but that's not quite right (again: pedantry!). It absolutely can find it... provided it's already in play, where Throne Room originally put it laugh i.e. if something else moved the card, Throne Room can't find it to put in play again. Which means.. if it's anywhere other than in play Throne Room can never put it back in play. Heh.

Yeah, that's certainly kind of weird. The only way TR can put the card in play the second time is if it's already there. But wait... that's the only time it's totally unnecessary to put it into play!

I've actually been wondering how Donald would phrase this in the published lose-track rule, if he were to use the Throne Room/Mining Village example. He didn't exactly, but he used Procession/Madman, which is exactly like TR/MV but with an added twist (which isn't relevant here):

"then Procession fails to put Madman into play again, because Procession expects to find Madman in play, but it is not there, it's in the Madman pile"

I wonder if that's understandable for someone not familiar with this rule from before..? I mean, it seems weird, since Procession would "fail" to put Madman into play if the reverse was true, that Madman was in play: You can't put something where it already is.
 
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Nate S
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PunchBall wrote:
I wonder if that's understandable for someone not familiar with this rule from before..? I mean, it seems weird, since Procession would "fail" to put Madman into play if the reverse was true, that Madman was in play: You can't put something where it already is.

In my view, Throne Room or Procession does normally put a card in play a second time for anything that cares about cards being put into play (which is: nothing, AFAIK). If there were a "when you put this into play" clause on a card, Throne Room would trigger it twice.

The point is academic because I'm pretty sure there are no card combinations out there where Card A moves Card B from a location to the same location, and Card B cares about being moved to that location. The reason Mining Village doesn't work twice when Throned (for example) is that it can't find itself in play to trash itself a second time.
 
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Nick Knutsen
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ghorsche wrote:
In my view, Throne Room or Procession does normally put a card in play a second time for anything that cares about cards being put into play (which is: nothing, AFAIK). If there were a "when you put this into play" clause on a card, Throne Room would trigger it twice.

The point is academic because I'm pretty sure there are no card combinations out there where Card A moves Card B from a location to the same location, and Card B cares about being moved to that location. The reason Mining Village doesn't work twice when Throned (for example) is that it can't find itself in play to trash itself a second time.


Well, I was thinking about it mostly from how someone would look at it who wasn't intimately familiar with the intricacies of Dominion rules. Putting something where it already is intuitively seems impossible.

When it comes to the actual rules, yes I think it's academic. But I seem to remember Donald explaining Throne Roomed Mining Village in terms of "you can't trash it because trashing means moving to trash and it's already in trash." That must have been before talk of any lose-track rule, so Donald probably explained it that way because he didn't want to make it more complicated than it needed to be (since nobody had heard of lose-track). EDIT: I can't find this statement from Donald. It might have been other users explaining it this way in the early days that I was thinking of.
 
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Nate S
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PunchBall wrote:
Well, I was thinking about it mostly from how someone would look at it who wasn't intimately familiar with the intricacies of Dominion rules. Putting something where it already is intuitively seems impossible.

I think the purpose of the clarification is to tell someone they don't get to take the Madman out of the Madman pile and put it back in play when Procession plays the card again. Same deal as if it were TR/MV and you trashed the Mining Village on the first play: you don't pull it out of the trash and put it back in play when Throne Room plays it again.

This is important for the specific example in the Dark Ages rulebook, because if you did it wrong (ignoring the lose track rule and putting the Madman back in play), you could trigger the card draw effect a second time. (Side note: under my "academic" interpretation the reason you don't trigger the card draw effect a second time is that the Madman can't find itself in play where it expects to be, so it can't return itself to the Madman pile.)
 
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Nick Knutsen
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I get that. I wasn't talking about the reason for the explanation. I was just loosely speculating about whether the explanation itself would make sense to a "layman". Specifically the part I quoted.

I think that everyone gets that you can't do what the specific example tells you that you can't do. What I wondered is whether they get why, i.e. get the lose-track rule itself. Which of course could be important in situations not covered by the rules at all.
 
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