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Subject: Credit Report : Runner rss

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reed makamson
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It's hard on the streets, many have to fight just to get by. when you're going up against a corporation, having or not having enough cred on hand can make or break you. fortunately, the savvy of the underground know ways to dig up scratch...

Account Siphon: cost:0. hard to gauge off the bat. as it stands to gain up to 10 credits instantly off one click for potentially no investment, it might be easy to call it hands down the best. However, it's more complex than that. you must run HQ, which could be very well protected, costing perhaps 10 or more credits to successfully run, assuming you have the cards to make it possible. But then again, if you pull it off, the corp loses up to 5 creds, pulling in a credit advantage from both ends. lastly, a serious downside is you take two tags, tags you must avoid or remove, or face almost certain retribution. so one, still optimistic, way to look at this card is [click, click, click]: gain 6 credits and corp loses 5 credits.
RATING:fair. some games it will be useless. in others:a linchpin FTW.

Aesop's Pawnshop: cost:1. another complex one. as star of the icebreaker tourney, we've seen this card deliver credits with a swiftness. suddenly all of your unused "just in case" cards are a gold mine. 3 credits a turn with no click and minimum investment is monstrous income, enough to topple any corp. however, to keep it fed you have to give a click and maybe some credits, assuming you've got a card that costs less than 3 to install and you have no immediate use for. Fortunately its optional turn-to-turn.
RATING:good(especially for Kate)

Armitage Codebusting: cost:1. 7 clicks to profit 11 credits. ultimate profit:4 credits. drudgery though it is, it's the benchmark of runner income. better profit per card than sure gamble, and with lower initial investment. vulnerable to tagging.
RATING:fair

Bank Job: cost:1. 2 clicks to profit 7 credits. ultimate profit:5 credits. once again, not that simple. very rarely do you find a remote server will no protection. this may take some setup, luck, and/or additional investment.
RATING:good, if somewhat unreliable.

Crash Space: cost:2. 2 recurring credits for use in removing tags. you're rarely removing a tag each turn, so this income is less useful than other recurring-credit cards. the damage avoidance is certainly noteworthy, even if Crash Space itself is vulnerable to tagging.
RATING:fair.

Cyberfeeder: cost:2. windfalls are great, recurring income is better. pays for itself in two runs and multiple copies can really ease the burden of credit generation.
RATING:good

Datadealer: cost:0. click for a whopping 9 credits. but you must forfeit an agenda. how much is an agenda worth? when you calculate the run costs the answer is easily more than 9 credits on average. however not all agendas are created equal. 1 point may not be the difference between victory and defeat, and 9 credits might be exactly that.
RATING:fair, great in the right situation, a situation that i feel is uncommon.

Desperado: cost:3. an extra credit after every good run may not sound like a lot, but it can surly add up. may not be the best console, but as a credit-machine it surly cuts the mustard.
RATING:good

Easy Mark: cost:0. a click for 3 credits. ultimate profit:2 credits. not that great, but your best friend when you've hit bottom.
RATING:fair/poor.

Infiltration: cost:0. a click for 2 credits. ultimate profit:1 credit. as a credit gainer, quite crappy. the exposure stands to grant a must better advantage. still, if you've got nothing else...
RATING:poor

Magnum Opus: cost:5. the one and only program on the list and it's a doozy at 2 MU. the potential for profit is vast. however if you run a lot of viruses or if the corp has forced you to tote a full spectrum of breakers, might not be worth holding. a good console and some mem chips is virtually necessary, unless you intend to override opus once you've rolled up your bank.
RATING:good fair

Stimhack: cost:0. goes on the list even though the income is only useful on a single run. can be inconvenient if you run a lot of sabotage and the unpreventable brain damage is none too appealing. similar to the datadealer, 1 brain damage might not decide the match, but 9 credits can certainly turn a tide.
RATING:fair/good, don't overuse it.

Sure Gamble: Cost:5. one click for 9 credits. ultimate profit:3 credits. higher investment and less profit than codebusting, but sometimes you need the money now or never.
RATING:fair.

The Toolbox: Cost:9. not 1 but 2 recurring credits for use with icebreakers! as with cyberfeeder: income > windfall. but 9 credits is a little steep, even considering the link and MU boost. great console if you looking for a top-of-the-line model, just not the most economical.
RATING:good.

There are several options for a runner looking finance his latest mischief. words to the wise: don't mindlessly plug your stack with the "best" options. the best options take intuition and finesse to pay off, and sometimes the corp has got you cornered and what could've been best becomes worst and vice versa. Always leave yourself outs, and if you've got cred, you've got options.

Edit: due to persuasive arguments, changed Magnum Opus from good to fair.
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reebomak wrote:

Bank Job: cost:1. 2 clicks to profit 7 credits. ultimate profit:5 credits. once again, not that simple. very rarely do you find a remote server will no protection. this may take some setup, luck, and/or additional investment.
RATING:good, if somewhat unreliable.


What?

Over on the Corp side you say:
Quote:
Adonis Campaign: cost:4. click for 8 credit profit. ultimate profit:7 credits. presents excellent mid-term profit, though with a moderate trash cost of 3 credits, that profit will be somewhat reduced by the need of security or else surely cut short by the runner.
RATING:good


Which all but suggests not protecting Adonis... Which means Bank Job WILL have unprotected servers to run after.

 
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reed makamson
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byronczimmer wrote:
reebomak wrote:

Bank Job: cost:1. 2 clicks to profit 7 credits. ultimate profit:5 credits. once again, not that simple. very rarely do you find a remote server will no protection. this may take some setup, luck, and/or additional investment.
RATING:good, if somewhat unreliable.


What?

Over on the Corp side you say:
Quote:
Adonis Campaign: cost:4. click for 8 credit profit. ultimate profit:7 credits. presents excellent mid-term profit, though with a moderate trash cost of 3 credits, that profit will be somewhat reduced by the need of security or else surely cut short by the runner.
RATING:good


Which all but suggests not protecting Adonis... Which means Bank Job WILL have unprotected servers to run after.



Unprotected remotes are certainly not unheard of, but an adonis campaign or even a PAD campaign will more than likely have some degree of protection on it. to pull off the bank job you'll either need to run when and where corp is unable/unwilling to rez(setup or luck depending on circumstance) or pay to break any ice(additional investment).
 
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Bier Fuizl
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Magus Opus: Neutral setup cost is 2 draws, 2 installs (Opus and MU card) plus 5* for Opus and 3* for MU. You will reach break even after 16 actions assuming one card and one credit per action without it. So you'd need four full turns before you start gaining advantage of Magnus Opus.

Real world play always looks a wee bit different. You'd install MO first but would then later have to decide to get more MU or trash your precious source of income. Getting MU later will save one or two actions. The ratio of action/credit/card always depends on your deck and rarely is 1:1:1. Cards are somewhat easier to get (e.g. Diesel) and actions are mostly fixed. So the balance lies between cards and credits most of the time.

In the old Netrunner you saw Magnus Opus' counterpart mostly in sealed (read: low power) games due to its high setup cost. But with the deck building restrictions in the new version this might change.
 
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Spyder Murphy
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Bierfuizl wrote:

In the old Netrunner you saw Magnus Opus' counterpart mostly in sealed (read: low power) games due to its high setup cost. But with the deck building reductions in the new version this might change.
That might of been true in years 4+ when people started using 12 copies of Loan from Chiba in their deck. But in years 1-3 I very frequently saw the 4 MU being used by Newsgroup Filter (Magnum Ops) Bartmoss and Joan.
 
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Patrick Jamet
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Bierfuizl wrote:
Magus Opus: Neutral setup cost is 2 draws, 2 installs (Opus and MU card) plus 5* for Opus and 3* for MU. You will reach break even after 16 actions assuming one card and one credit per action without it. So you'd need four full turns before you start gaining advantage of Magnus Opus.

For all these reasons, Magnus Opus is crap.
3x Armitage Codebusting is better. You break even way faster.
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Jeff Lindsay
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Armitage is a more beneficial card early game, but the longer the game the more advantageous MO is, especially for the shaper, who can mod MO into play for the same cost as AC and who has the memory cards not to care as much about the extra mu.
 
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Scautura _
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Hrrrmmm wrote:
Armitage is a more beneficial card early game, but the longer the game the more advantageous MO is, especially for the shaper, who can mod MO into play for the same cost as AC and who has the memory cards not to care as much about the extra mu.

Not to mention Armitage is a Resource - get tagged, say buh-bye to your income source. The Corp can't directly trash programs reliably.
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Patrick Jamet
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I don't play to keep Armitage Codebusting very long. It doesn't stay on the table long enough to be trashed by the Corp.

Magnus Opus is theoretically better if the game is long, but I don't want the game to be long. I want to win before the Corp.

EDIT :
In fact, Magnus Opus is better than 3x Armitage Codebusting if I can use it more than 18 times. It's not obvious that it will ever happen. And it's even worse if I need to install some memory expansion due to the 2 MU cost.
 
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reed makamson
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While MO isn't a no-brainer, it's surly not crap either. if you think you'll spend at least 12-15 more action this game gaining credits(roughly 7 or 8 more turns if you space it out), then MO is solid gold. however its hard to hold on to, limiting its otherwise unlimited long-term profit. a better use for MO might be to build enough to pay for installing all your breakers and a nice nest egg left over then override with a more useful program.
 
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Pyjam wrote:
I don't play to keep Armitage Codebusting very long. It doesn't stay on the table long enough to be trashed by the Corp.

Magnus Opus is theoretically better if the game is long, but I don't want the game to be long. I want to win before the Corp.

EDIT :
In fact, Magnus Opus is better than 3x Armitage Codebusting if I can use it more than 18 times. It's not obvious that it will ever happen. And it's even worse if I need to install some memory expansion due to the 2 MU cost.


Winning before the Corp does not imply it is a short, medium or long length game.
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James 3
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magnum opus has economy staying power. armitage runs dry quickly. staying power means alot, and is a rare trait for a credit engine. Im a fan in working this in when it makes sense, especially if you plan to install a full kit and go in the front door of dataforts turn after turn.
 
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jeremy b
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reebomak wrote:
Aesop's Pawnshop: cost:1. another complex one. as star of the icebreaker tourney, we've seen this card deliver credits with a swiftness. suddenly all of your unused "just in case" cards are a gold mine. 3 credits a turn with no click and minimum investment is monstrous income, enough to topple any corp. however, to keep it fed you have to give a click and maybe some credits, assuming you've got a card that costs less than 3 to install and you have no immediate use for. Fortunately its optional turn-to-turn.
RATING:good(especially for Kate)

i don't agree that this card is generally good. while there are decks that can be built around this card, it doesn't have a place in most runner stacks. your assertion that the investment is minimal doesn't take into account the economies of clicks and deck slots.

to use aesop's, you must first find and install the card, which costs 2 actions (to draw and to play) plus a bit. so right off, you're in the hole. how long does it take to pay itself back?

any time you use aesop's to gain 3 bits at the beginning of your turn, you must have previously installed a card. this costs 2 actions (to draw and to play), plus whatever the card's install cost is.

if the card you're pawning cost [0] to install, you've paid 2 actions for 3 credits, which is not great. if the card cost you [1] to install, you've paid 2 actions for 2 credits (net), which is the same as just taking 2 bits from the bank. any higher cost is highly situational and returns us to building a deck around aesop's (which _is_ a valid long-game strategy, though difficult in the current card pool).

so if you install and pawn 3 0-cost cards, you've finally paid back the installation cost of aesop's and you can now start thinking about playing more useless 0-cost cards to get one more bit per turn than you could have by just pushing the built-in bit button. not worth it.

how many dead cards are you willing to put into your deck just to fuel an inefficient bit engine? i prefer to cull these cards and aesop's in favor of cards that i'm always happy to see in my grip -- cards i want to play and keep around for the duration of the match.

people have mentioned bank job as a good combo with aesop's. that's valid, but bank job is fairly situational as well. a more reliable combo card is armitage codebusting, which you can sell once it gets down to 2 counters (sacrificing 2 bits on the card for 3 from the bank) for a net gain of [12] from the card instead of the usual [11].
 
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reed makamson
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jellydoughnut wrote:
reebomak wrote:
Aesop's Pawnshop: cost:1. another complex one. as star of the icebreaker tourney, we've seen this card deliver credits with a swiftness. suddenly all of your unused "just in case" cards are a gold mine. 3 credits a turn with no click and minimum investment is monstrous income, enough to topple any corp. however, to keep it fed you have to give a click and maybe some credits, assuming you've got a card that costs less than 3 to install and you have no immediate use for. Fortunately its optional turn-to-turn.
RATING:good(especially for Kate)

i don't agree that this card is generally good. while there are decks that can be built around this card, it doesn't have a place in most runner stacks. your assertion that the investment is minimal doesn't take into account the economies of clicks and deck slots.

to use aesop's, you must first find and install the card, which costs 2 actions (to draw and to play) plus a bit. so right off, you're in the hole. how long does it take to pay itself back?

any time you use aesop's to gain 3 bits at the beginning of your turn, you must have previously installed a card. this costs 2 actions (to draw and to play), plus whatever the card's install cost is.

if the card you're pawning cost [0] to install, you've paid 2 actions for 3 credits, which is not great. if the card cost you [1] to install, you've paid 2 actions for 2 credits (net), which is the same as just taking 2 bits from the bank. any higher cost is highly situational and returns us to building a deck around aesop's (which _is_ a valid long-game strategy, though difficult in the current card pool).

so if you install and pawn 3 0-cost cards, you've finally paid back the installation cost of aesop's and you can now start thinking about playing more useless 0-cost cards to get one more bit per turn than you could have by just pushing the built-in bit button. not worth it.

how many dead cards are you willing to put into your deck just to fuel an inefficient bit engine? i prefer to cull these cards and aesop's in favor of cards that i'm always happy to see in my grip -- cards i want to play and keep around for the duration of the match.

people have mentioned bank job as a good combo with aesop's. that's valid, but bank job is fairly situational as well. a more reliable combo card is armitage codebusting, which you can sell once it gets down to 2 counters (sacrificing 2 bits on the card for 3 from the bank) for a net gain of [12] from the card instead of the usual [11].



the cost to draw and install/play a card is the same for all the cards in the OP, so why mention that when comparing it to other such cards? also, it may take many draws, not necessarily just one, to find pawnshop in your stack. figuring "draw cost" has a random element dependent on current deck makeup. and it's not as though you load the stack with cards with the express purpose of pawning them. the circumstance you find yourself makes some cards dead and others useful. when the circumstances are different, which cards are dead and which ones are useful is different. you always, or at least often, put in some cards based on a certain contingencies. if said contingencies don't come about, then the card becomes dead. but with aesop rather than simple trash them to let you draw other cards, you can make a nice chunk off them.
 
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Patrick Jamet
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flamejuggler wrote:
magnum opus has economy staying power. armitage runs dry quickly. staying power means alot, and is a rare trait for a credit engine. Im a fan in working this in when it makes sense, especially if you plan to install a full kit and go in the front door of dataforts turn after turn.

Hum... you certainly know that waiting for the full kit before you attack the Corp is the shortest way to the defeat.

I hate the fact that I may need to take some credits from the bank before I get the 5 credits to pay for MO. And I hate the fact that I need clicks, and credits, and more cards just to add 2 MU for this card. And I hate the fact that I can't run blindly before I get a killer because a cheap Rototurret will have a devastating effect on my game.

That said, I haven't played A:N yet, and the lack of Junkyard BBS forbids reusing the same Armitage Codebusting. So, maybe I'll change my mind.
 
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James 3
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its takes ZERO cards to use a click to get a bit. thats why we mention it.

thats a very key factor and why it DOES matter to discuss drawing and installing when trying to determine how effective the pawnshop is compared to just taking credits as an action. if the card is truly "dead" and you will get no use out of it, it is likely not worth the "time" to install it just to pawn it. Its more awkward to get true "gains" off this card than it first appears. its a contingency plan, not a primary source of operating capital.

the card has uses, and will likely have more good ones come up as the cardpool expands, but calling it an "engine" is overestimating the benefit it provides.

planning to have a full kit longterm doesnt mean i dont run along the way...but "playing fair" and breaking well-defended forts takes money turn after turn. I think you'll be surprised how effective Magnum Opus is in the current cardpool for many decks, Ive played with it quite alot.
 
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flamejuggler wrote:
the card has uses, and will likely have more good ones come up as the cardpool expands, but calling it an "engine" is overestimating the benefit it provides.


Yeah, at best it is a tool used to bring back efficiency to a flexibility build (anticipating multiple Corp strategies). Using it in a focused build seems wasteful.
 
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Patrick Jamet
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The OP forgot to mention Datasucker and Parasite.

These two programs save a lot of money, at the recurring cost of 0 click, one may trash a piece of ice or forces the Corp to lose a complete turn.

I resale my two copies of Magnum Opus for one copy of both every day.
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Noah D

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flamejuggler wrote:

the card has uses, and will likely have more good ones come up as the card pool expands, but calling it an "engine" is overestimating the benefit it provides.

Yes, I think that's very true. Without a way for the runner to install multiple cards with a single action (besides expensive Rabbit Holes) it can't be called a bit gaining engine. I would however say that it's not only good, but very good, even with the limited cards available now. Any Link cards, Tag Prevention cards, Damage prevention cards, etc. you can't wait to get those into play until you need them. You play them preemptively but then if over the course of the game you discover the corp isn't leveraging those particular tools, you can get that investment back with Aesop.

That's why he shines, you can't consider him in terms of an engine where you add in the cost of every card draw and install, or he becomes enormously inefficient, but when you actually need him to, he can be the most efficient bit-gain possible, +3 without spending a single action. At the end-game, that may be the push you need to complete a key run, and there are doubtless installed cards you don't need for it, possibly even icebreakers for types other than the ICE on the fort you're about to run. At the end of the game, you don't get points for the cards installed in your rig...

Also, people aren't accounting for full costs on both sides:
jellydoughnut wrote:

a more reliable combo card is armitage codebusting, which you can sell once it gets down to 2 counters (sacrificing 2 bits on the card for 3 from the bank) for a net gain of [12] from the card instead of the usual [11].
12 instead of 11, yes, but way more importantly, you gain an entire action...
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reed makamson
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Pyjam wrote:
The OP forgot to mention Datasucker and Parasite.

These two programs save a lot of money, at the recurring cost of 0 click, one may trash an ice or forces the Corp to lose 3 click.

I resale my two copies of Magnum Opus for one copy of both every day.


very true, but parasite in no way gains credits. i suppose if i've included desperado and cyberfeeder, and datasucker can be considered a combination of those concepts, perhaps i should include it, if it doesn't directly affect credits.

Datasucker: a good run on a central servers gives a discount on future ice breaking. like desperado, slow to add up, unless you have several. don't let them stack too high, or the corp can purge it. but forcing them to miss a turn may certainly be worth it.
RATING:good
 
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argus88 wrote:
flamejuggler wrote:

the card has uses, and will likely have more good ones come up as the card pool expands, but calling it an "engine" is overestimating the benefit it provides.

Yes, I think that's very true. Without a way for the runner to install multiple cards with a single action (besides expensive Rabbit Holes) it can't be called a bit gaining engine. I would however say that it's not only good, but very good, even with the limited cards available now. Any Link cards, Tag Prevention cards, Damage prevention cards, etc. you can't wait to get those into play until you need them. You play them preemptively but then if over the course of the game you discover the corp isn't leveraging those particular tools, you can get that investment back with Aesop.


i agree its a way to recoup "situational" cards you realize you dont need. that said...thats a "style" of deck that favors flexibility over focus, not something every runner will need. frankly, i tend to avoid running as many super-situational cards in my stacks as possible, usually cutting sacrificial construct, usually cutting rabbit hole, and ALWAYS cutting access to globalsec. i prefer a focused deck with as few potential dead cards as possible, and favoring proactive offense over flexible defense. In a stack like that, aesop's is kinda crappy actually. in a deck devoting alot of slots to situational defense cards that are also cheap, yes, its stock rises a tad. I like it alot in decks with Wyldside. other than that, Ive typically been very UNimpressed with it in play frankly, though that is likely due to me being extremely critical and choosy with my card slot use of situational cards.
 
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reebomak wrote:
very true, but parasite in no way gains credits. i suppose if i've included desperado and cyberfeeder, and datasucker can be considered a combination of those concepts, perhaps i should include it, if it doesn't directly affect credits.


Parasite saves you the trouble of breaking the ice over and over again. Whether that falls under the auspice of a credit engine is a tough call, but anyone evaluating Parasite needs to consider this.
 
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Jeff Lindsay
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Part of the perceived strength of Aesop right now is the relatively small cardpool. As expansion packs come out and 'better' cards enter the pool, the odds that you will have cards you are willing to trash for credits relatively frequently will go down.
 
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Hrrrmmm wrote:
Part of the perceived strength of Aesop right now is the relatively small cardpool. As expansion packs come out and 'better' cards enter the pool, the odds that you will have cards you are willing to trash for credits relatively frequently will go down.


Or, as pointed out, if multi-install cards become available, trashing cheaply installed cards for credits will be perceived as having a higher value.

The sword cuts both ways.
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Jeff Lindsay
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This assumes those cards have little utility, which means they probably don't qualify as 'better.' If multi-install, relatively low utility cards become ubiquitous, then sure. If a card is providing a substantial in game advantage, it's less likely to be trashed.
 
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