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Dominion: Dark Ages» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question about Counterfeit and Bank rss

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Emeric Salmon
France
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I have a question about the value of bank when I play a counterfeit.

If I have 3 coppers, 1 counterfeit and 2 banks, I play my 3 coppers and my counterfeit (for $4) and I decide to play my first bank twice so this bank count for $5 twice or $5 and $6 ?
And if after I play my second Bank, what is it value ? $5, $6 or $7 ?

In my mind, all my three bank count $5, but I am not sure to be right.

Emeric
PS : sorry for my poor english, I speak french.
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David Goldfarb
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Looking at the language of the cards, I think all three Banks give $5.
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Simon Kamber
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David Goldfarb wrote:
Looking at the language of the cards, I think all three Banks give $5.


Agreed. Even though you play the bank twice, there is still only one bank 'in play' the second time you play it. And when you play the other bank, the first one is no longer 'in play'.
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Mike Loftus
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Henrietta
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Emeric73 wrote:
I have a question about the value of bank when I play a counterfeit.

If I have 3 coppers, 1 counterfeit and 2 banks, I play my 3 coppers and my counterfeit (for $4) and I decide to play my first bank twice so this bank count for $5 twice or $5 and $6 ?
And if after I play my second Bank, what is it value ? $5, $6 or $7 ?

In my mind, all my three bank count $5, but I am not sure to be right.

Emeric
PS : sorry for my poor english, I speak french.


3 Coppers = 3 towards Bank
1 Counterfeit = 1 towards Bank
First Bank = 3+1+1=5
Counterfeit Bank = 3+1+1=5
Trash Bank 1
Second REAL Bank = 3+1+1=5

That's how I would play that.

Edit: Re-read Spoils which trashes the Treasure card you duplicate.
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Joseph Nall
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Boca Raton
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Playing: Copper, copper, copper, counterfeit, bank($5), bank($5), bank($5) that hand is worth $19 but if you play it Copper, copper, copper, bank($4), counterfeit, bank($6), bank($6) that hand is worth $20
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The Compulsive Completist
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zombie
How much for you to sit beside me and tell me how to play when it comes out?
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John Marvin
United States
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I don't think this is correct. Bank is not a self trasher like Spoils, so it isn't trashed until after it is played the second time with Counterfeit. The second Bank should count for 1 more coin than the first because it still sees the "first" bank in play. After it is played the second time it is then trashed following the Counterfeit instructions. Playing a Bank afterwards would only see the Counterfeit.

I believe it should be counted like this for the two different play orders above:

Copper, Copper, Copper, Counterfeit, Bank($5),Bank($6), Bank($5), for a total of $20.

Copper, Copper, Copper, Bank($4), Counterfeit, Bank($6), Bank($7), for a total of $21.
 
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Mark Judd
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Wright City
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jsmarvin wrote:
I don't think this is correct. Bank is not a self trasher like Spoils, so it isn't trashed until after it is played the second time with Counterfeit. The second Bank should count for 1 more coin than the first because it still sees the "first" bank in play. After it is played the second time it is then trashed following the Counterfeit instructions. Playing a Bank afterwards would only see the Counterfeit.

I believe it should be counted like this for the two different play orders above:

Copper, Copper, Copper, Counterfeit, Bank($5),Bank($6), Bank($5), for a total of $20.

Copper, Copper, Copper, Bank($4), Counterfeit, Bank($6), Bank($7), for a total of $21.

The second occurrence of Bank due to Counterfeit will not provide $1 more than the first occurrence. It will not "see" the first occurrence of Bank because the Bank card is not physically in play.
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Whitney Barnes

California
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jsmarvin wrote:
I don't think this is correct. Bank is not a self trasher like Spoils, so it isn't trashed until after it is played the second time with Counterfeit. The second Bank should count for 1 more coin than the first because it still sees the "first" bank in play. After it is played the second time it is then trashed following the Counterfeit instructions. Playing a Bank afterwards would only see the Counterfeit.

I believe it should be counted like this for the two different play orders above:

Copper, Copper, Copper, Bank($4), Counterfeit, Bank($6), Bank($7), for a total of $21.


I don't see how that last bank can be worth 7, since there are only 6 treasures "in play" at that time (Even though that last Bank is the 7th treasure played): the 3 Coppers, the first Bank, the Counterfeit, and the second Bank.

Or to put it another way, just because Bank has been played twice doesn't mean two copies are "in play".
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John Marvin
United States
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I wanted to check this against using Throne Room on an action card that had an "in play" interaction, and that showed that I was wrong. For example, using Throne Room on Highway does not reduce costs by 2 coins, because the Highway is only counted as "in play" once. This would mean that playing the "second" Bank doesn't see the "first" play of the Bank as being "in play" so it wouldn't count it.
 
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Nate S
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Since there's some cross-talk and confusion ITT, I'll add my voice to the people who realize that a card is only "in play" if it's a physical card sitting there on the table. Bank counts physical cards in the play area without regard to the number of times each physical card might have been played. Bottom line, each of the 3 Banks grants $5.
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ghorsche wrote:
Since there's some cross-talk and confusion ITT, I'll add my voice to the people who realize that a card is only "in play" if it's a physical card sitting there on the table. Bank counts physical cards in the play area without regard to the number of times each physical card might have been played. Bottom line, each of the 3 Banks grants $5.



Is the Bank that is trashed in play? That is, does it even count itself?
 
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David Goldfarb
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I believe it gets played twice and then gets trashed, so I would say it's in play both times.
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Nate S
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darthnice wrote:
Is the Bank that is trashed in play? That is, does it even count itself?

Read the cards and go through the instructions on them chronologically and I think you will be able to answer your own question

(The Bank will eventually be trashed by Counterfeit... after it's all finished being played.)
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Moribund
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So if you were to use Horn of Plenty and Counterfeit, the second play of Horn of Plenty would not count itself if the first was trashed because you gained a victory card.

Interesting.
 
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Cartographer Trader
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Related question:

If you use Counterfeit to play Quarry, does that mean the Quarry only provides $1 like a Copper (and playing it twice via Counterfeit therefore gives you $2), but then it doesn't actually lower the cost of Actions by $2 (let alone $4), because it's immediately trashed?

Quarry is worded as: "while this is in play, Action cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0".

Presumably, for a brief instant while the Counterfeit is playing Quarry the first time, the costs are indeed lowered by $2, but then trashing it immediately undoes that effect.

As far as I can tell, however, no combination of Market Square, Watchtower, Trader, or any other reactions can make use of this brief effect.
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Stefan W.
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nonrectangular wrote:
Related question:

If you use Counterfeit to play Quarry, does that mean the Quarry only provides $1 like a Copper (and playing it twice via Counterfeit therefore gives you $2), but then it doesn't actually lower the cost of Actions by $2 (let alone $4), because it's immediately trashed?

Quarry is worded as: "while this is in play, Action cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0".

Presumably, for a brief instant while the Counterfeit is playing Quarry the first time, the costs are indeed lowered by $2, but then trashing it immediately undoes that effect.

As far as I can tell, however, no combination of Market Square, Watchtower, Trader, or any other reactions can make use of this brief effect.

Sounds correct. Which means, you should play your Quarry before the Counterfeit.
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Pawel Pawlak
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kn1tt0r wrote:
nonrectangular wrote:
Related question:

If you use Counterfeit to play Quarry, does that mean the Quarry only provides $1 like a Copper (and playing it twice via Counterfeit therefore gives you $2), but then it doesn't actually lower the cost of Actions by $2 (let alone $4), because it's immediately trashed?

Quarry is worded as: "while this is in play, Action cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0".

Presumably, for a brief instant while the Counterfeit is playing Quarry the first time, the costs are indeed lowered by $2, but then trashing it immediately undoes that effect.

As far as I can tell, however, no combination of Market Square, Watchtower, Trader, or any other reactions can make use of this brief effect.

Sounds correct. Which means, you should play your Quarry before the Counterfeit.

Or after. Playing a Treasure twice is optional for Counterfeit. So playing Counterfeit, then Quarry, does not mean you have to trash Quarry, because you might have opted not to play Quarry twice. I agree, though, this may lead to some confusion, so it's better to play Counterfeit as the last Treasure in this case.
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Gabriel Edge

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Pg. 11 of the rulebook in front of me states: "If you use Counterfeit to play a Treasure that does something special when you play it, you will do that thing twice."

That should mean that Quarry's special ability counts twice.

What does that mean about Fool's Gold? That card states "first time played" and "otherwise" ... so Counterfeiting Fool's Gold ends up with $6 ($1 for Counterfeit, $1 for Fool's Gold first play and $4 for Fool's Gold that was counterfeited).

All of this is, of course, if you are using the Counterfeit ability ... but why else by a $1 card that costs $5?
 
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Whitney Barnes

California
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weirdlaugh wrote:
Pg. 11 of the rulebook in front of me states: "If you use Counterfeit to play a Treasure that does something special when you play it, you will do that thing twice."

That should mean that Quarry's special ability counts twice.


The only thing Quarry does when you play it is give you 1 coin. Its Action-cost reduction happens later, when you assess the cost of actions. You look down at all the treasure you have in play, and subtract 2 from the cost of each action card per Quarry you see.

So counterfeiting a Quarry will only succeed in netting you an extra coin.

Quote:
What does that mean about Fool's Gold? That card states "first time played" and "otherwise" ... so Counterfeiting Fool's Gold ends up with $6 ($1 for Counterfeit, $1 for Fool's Gold first play and $4 for Fool's Gold that was counterfeited).


Yes, because Fool's Gold counts how many times it's been played, not how many copies are "in play".


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Nate S
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weirdlaugh wrote:
Pg. 11 of the rulebook in front of me states: "If you use Counterfeit to play a Treasure that does something special when you play it, you will do that thing twice."

That should mean that Quarry's special ability counts twice.

To amplify Whitney's (correct) analysis, Quarry doesn't do anything special when you play it, unless you consider getting $1 to be special. Quarry's other more "special" ability isn't a thing that happens when you play it; it's a persistent game state that applies while the Quarry card is in play.
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Nick Knutsen
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I realize that Counterfeit will let you gain two Victory cards with a Horn of Plenty! It doesn't say that you only gain the Victory card if you trash it, so you can gain another Victory card playing Horn of Plenty "from the trash". Of course if you want two Provinces you need to hit 9 different cards in play that turn.
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Gabriel Edge

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ghorsche wrote:
weirdlaugh wrote:
Pg. 11 of the rulebook in front of me states: "If you use Counterfeit to play a Treasure that does something special when you play it, you will do that thing twice."

That should mean that Quarry's special ability counts twice.

To amplify Whitney's (correct) analysis, Quarry doesn't do anything special when you play it, unless you consider getting $1 to be special. Quarry's other more "special" ability isn't a thing that happens when you play it; it's a persistent game state that applies while the Quarry card is in play.


So then the question is regarding timing ...? Since card text says: "When you play this, you may play a treasure from your hand twice. If you do, trash that treasure.", that means we trash the treasure immediately? Thus Royal Seal is only going to result in +$4 if counterfeited, but no special ability. Same with Hoard and Talisman. Because, if I understand what was stated earlier, Counterfeit automatically trashes the treasure before the actual buy phase.

For the most part, even the more "difficult" cards have been intuitive for me, it is only here where my intuition appears to be completely wrong. That's a first for Dominion and that's why I'm a little baffled.
 
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Nick Knutsen
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weirdlaugh wrote:
So then the question is regarding timing ...? Since card text says: "When you play this, you may play a treasure from your hand twice. If you do, trash that treasure.", that means we trash the treasure immediately? Thus Royal Seal is only going to result in +$4 if counterfeited, but no special ability. Same with Hoard and Talisman. Because, if I understand what was stated earlier, Counterfeit automatically trashes the treasure before the actual buy phase.

Well, you're in the buy phase when you're playing Counterfeit, but yeah, you're in the first part of the buy phase, when you're playing your Treasures. The second part, when you're actually buying, comes after.

You don't trash the Treasure immediately, not until after you've played it, which entails doing what the Treasure says to do when you play it. It's just that the part that's under the dividing line ("While this is in play..." in this case) isn't done when you play it. So after it's been played twice, you've done that part of Counterfeit's instructions. You then continue to the next part, to trash the Treasure. After that, Counterfeit is done. Now you can play more Treasures. Then buy.

And of course, even if Quarry wasn't trashed, you would still only get the cost reduction once.
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