Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
22 Posts

Eclipse» Forums » Rules

Subject: Initial research setup rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jelle Kaptijn
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The first few games when we played with Terrans only, we get annoyed by the starbase tech coming out, so we implemented the following rule: techs that are already discoverd are picked from the researchbag and placed over the corresponding image of that tech on the playerboard of that player.

I am not totally sure if it's a houserule or that the rules imply this. What are your thoughts about it? Last game a found a little difficulty, because we needed to set up the researchboard before we chose alienraces. The solution was to prepare the board with the needed amount of tech and after choosing races, pick the techs that we needed from the board and replenish it after that. I'd like to hear your commentary on this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrei Ivanesei
Romania
Bucuresti
flag msg tools
I should buy less games
badge
Stop looking at my avatar!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Im not sure I got this right.
If you have a race that has the Starbase tech already printed on its board and the tech shows again when you pick them from the back, what exactly is the problem?

The tech printed on the player board its yours from the start, you dont have to get the token and place it over its image. The picture represents the token.

So if you have Starbase printed on your player board, from round 1 action 1 you can build a starbase - if you have the needed resources. You do not have to get the token from the research.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Baird
United States
Pflugerville
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Cirdan14 wrote:
The first few games when we played with Terrans only, we get annoyed by the starbase tech coming out, so we implemented the following rule: techs that are already discoverd are picked from the researchbag and placed over the corresponding image of that tech on the playerboard of that player.

I am not totally sure if it's a houserule or that the rules imply this. What are your thoughts about it? Last game a found a little difficulty, because we needed to set up the researchboard before we chose alienraces. The solution was to prepare the board with the needed amount of tech and after choosing races, pick the techs that we needed from the board and replenish it after that. I'd like to hear your commentary on this.


I think you *might* be playing techs wrong... At the start of the game (and each round), you choose a preset number of techs from the bag randomly & put them on the main research board. During the round, players can spend an action (and science points!) to "buy" one of those techs to place on their player mat.

If it so happens that a random draw is a research that a player already owns, so what? That player has an advantage by getting it free already. Leave it there for other players to buy.

As for playing humans & starbases coming up - that's part of the dynamic nature of the game. It means one less tech in the tech tree for this game. That changing nature is a good thing!



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Colburn
United Kingdom
Glasgow
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
As I understand it, he's saying that they have a little mechanism for "not counting" techs already printed on everyone's board so as to draw more techs from the bag.

But I think this is a bad idea: one of the nice aspects of the game is that one can't always rely on there being a good variety of techs to choose from. When everybody is human, the extra Starbase tiles are effectively "blanks" and I think that's a good thing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jelle Kaptijn
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
HolyGigi wrote:
Im not sure I got this right.
If you have a race that has the Starbase tech already printed on its board and the tech shows again when you pick them from the back, what exactly is the problem?

The tech printed on the player board its yours from the start, you dont have to get the token and place it over its image. The picture represents the token.

So if you have Starbase printed on your player board, from round 1 action 1 you can build a starbase - if you have the needed resources. You do not have to get the token from the research.


You're correct, but that was not the issue. We found it annoying seeing techs come up that nobody wanted to build, so by placing it over the image on your playerboard from the beginning of the game, we reduced the chance for that specific tech coming up.

Edit: Cantabrian is getting the point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ivo Pescia
Switzerland
Zurich
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
your houserule becomes obsolete the moment one player picks an alien race...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trevor Schadt
United States
Glenshaw
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
HolyGigi wrote:
Im not sure I got this right.
If you have a race that has the Starbase tech already printed on its board and the tech shows again when you pick them from the back, what exactly is the problem?
The problem is that when playing an all-Terran (or "Planta and all the rest Terran") game -- a game in which all the players start out with Starbases -- pulling Starbase techs from the bag decreases the number of technologies that are actually available for the players to Research (because you can't research a tech you already have, and even if you could, "the ability to build Starbases" wouldn't be one of the ones that you'd get any bonus for having twice).

Imagine an unlikely but possible scenario: during a given (non-first) turn of a 6-player, all-Terran game, all 4 Starbase technologies are drawn from the bag. In effect, you have lowered the number of new technologies made available on that turn from 9 to 5. That's a huge hit to the amount of new technology available.

That being said, usually when I'm running an all-Terran game, it's a teaching game, so I leave them in so that the new players learn RAW instead of house rules.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jelle Kaptijn
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Cantabrian wrote:
As I understand it, he's saying that they have a little mechanism for "not counting" techs already printed on everyone's board so as to draw more techs from the bag.

But I think this is a bad idea: one of the nice aspects of the game is that one can't always rely on there being a good variety of techs to choose from. When everybody is human, the extra Starbase tiles are effectively "blanks" and I think that's a good thing.


Well, i can see your point. So maybe we will try next game following the normal rules again. But just to be clear: this mechanism only works in the beginning. For example, with an Hydran player it means that there will be one less advanced labs in the researchbag. I like this, because there is already one player that will never compete for that tech. Let alone the fact how nice it looks on your playerboard to have a real techtile there! :-)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrei Ivanesei
Romania
Bucuresti
flag msg tools
I should buy less games
badge
Stop looking at my avatar!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cirdan14 wrote:
HolyGigi wrote:
Im not sure I got this right.
If you have a race that has the Starbase tech already printed on its board and the tech shows again when you pick them from the back, what exactly is the problem?

The tech printed on the player board its yours from the start, you dont have to get the token and place it over its image. The picture represents the token.

So if you have Starbase printed on your player board, from round 1 action 1 you can build a starbase - if you have the needed resources. You do not have to get the token from the research.


You're correct, but that was not the issue. We found it annoying seeing techs come up that nobody wanted to build, so by placing it over the image on your playerboard from the beginning of the game, we reduced the chance for that specific tech coming up.

Edit: Cantabrian is getting the point.


Well, this doesnt seem like a good rule to me, for these reasons:
- after you draw a bonus token that gives you the cheapest available tech, you wont get the "bad" lvl 1-2 ones since you are basically discarding those.
- even if a tech is bad, you may want it simply to reduce the cost of future techs in that category, or to get VP at the end of the game. Your rule messes with this quite hard.
- granted, some techs are not amazing, but i never had a game yet where we realized that one research was so bad no one wanted it. Almost every time, you have to adapt to what your opponents are doing

But hey, if you enjoy the game this way, thats all that matter in the end. We all make house rules that make the games *better* for us.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate Straight

Covington
Louisiana
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ryudoowaru wrote:
HolyGigi wrote:
Im not sure I got this right.
If you have a race that has the Starbase tech already printed on its board and the tech shows again when you pick them from the back, what exactly is the problem?
The problem is that when playing an all-Terran (or "Planta and all the rest Terran") game -- a game in which all the players start out with Starbases -- pulling Starbase techs from the bag decreases the number of technologies that are actually available for the players to Research (because you can't research a tech you already have, and even if you could, "the ability to build Starbases" wouldn't be one of the ones that you'd get any bonus for having twice).

Imagine an unlikely but possible scenario: during a given (non-first) turn of a 6-player, all-Terran game, all 4 Starbase technologies are drawn from the bag. In effect, you have lowered the number of new technologies made available on that turn from 9 to 5. That's a huge hit to the amount of new technology available.

That being said, usually when I'm running an all-Terran game, it's a teaching game, so I leave them in so that the new players learn RAW instead of house rules.


Given that this is so blatantly obvious that people discover it on their first play of the game, surely one must think that the designers understood this and even intended it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jelle Kaptijn
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I think my explaination is not clear enough. I am sorry for that. Let me try to be more clear using an example:

Last monday we played with four players, so i set up the researchboard with the necessary amount of tech. The first player chose Hydran, so i took one of the two advanced labs of the researchboard. The second player chose Orion and started with gaussshield and neutronbomb. There was one neutronbomb on the board and no gausshield. So i took the neutronbomb of the board and the gausshield from the bag. I was Planta and took a starbase, as the fourth player did, who was Terran. After the picking of races, i replenished the board with the missing tech tiles. From then on, we followed the normal rules.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Baird
United States
Pflugerville
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Essentially, you could just fill up the player boards with the tech tiles they "own" & solve the issue. Then the bag will be completely "valid" for your setup for each pull without having to keep pulling until you're all happy.



I've never played with anyone who 'needed' to have those base tech tiles to validate their board but each to their own
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Forrest & Ryan Driskel
United States
Longmont
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We definitely get it, we're just saying it greatly skews the dynamics of the game.

What happens when you're playing with 5 Terrans and 1 Alien? That Alien can NEVER have Starbases right from the beginning. This dramatically changes the dynamic.

Heck, even with 6 Terrans you couldn't fill up the player's boards with Starbase techs, there are only 5 of them in the bag.


Rather than be annoyed, take it as a challenge. You're competing for less total techs, making your choices even more important.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jelle Kaptijn
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
fenners wrote:
Essentially, you could just fill up the player boards with the tech tiles they "own" & solve the issue. Then the bag will be completely "valid" for your setup for each pull without having to keep pulling until you're all happy.

Well, that's not true, because we want to fill the researchboard before chosing races. We now just pull extra if necessary.

Vanish wrote:
What happens when you're playing with 5 Terrans and 1 Alien? That Alien can NEVER have Starbases right from the beginning. This dramatically changes the dynamic.

Heck, even with 6 Terrans you couldn't fill up the player's boards with Starbase techs, there are only 5 of them in the bag.

I didn't thought about that. So far we only played with 5 terrans max, so there was no problem.

But thanks for the replies, you convinced me to stick to the rules. To quote a wise persons i knew: rules are not for nothing.

I guess i have to get used to the lousy printed techs on my board. ;-)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gar Per
United States
Greenwood
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
HolyGigi wrote:

Well, this doesnt seem like a good rule to me, for these reasons:
- after you draw a bonus token that gives you the cheapest available tech, you wont get the "bad" lvl 1-2 ones since you are basically discarding those.
- even if a tech is bad, you may want it simply to reduce the cost of future techs in that category, or to get VP at the end of the game. Your rule messes with this quite hard.
- granted, some techs are not amazing, but i never had a game yet where we realized that one research was so bad no one wanted it. Almost every time, you have to adapt to what your opponents are doing

But hey, if you enjoy the game this way, thats all that matter in the end. We all make house rules that make the games *better* for us.


I agree that these are some issues if playing with mixed aliens. With Terrans only, none of these would be an issue.

Draw a bonus tech token as a Terran, you aren't taking starbases with it.(You can't in fact)
You can't take a starbase tech again to reduce cost as a terran - you already have it.
And if everyone is a Terran, starbases are not so bad that nobody wants them (btw, that isn't what he is trying to say), but everyone has them to start, so nobody will or even can buy them if they are drawn.

To me it seems like a decent small tweak in an all-terran game. I don't like it in a game with aliens. Fenners suggestion to just give everyone their start tech tile before beginning the game is a better overall tweak if you wanted to do something like this with aliens
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Olesen
Denmark
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The rules say nothing about discarding technology tiles that cannot be picked by any player. I'm pretty sure that such tiles are meant to limit the available technologies, which is by design random already.

And it can happen quite often - e.g. by drawing more tiles of a specific tyoe than there are players in the game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathue Faulkner
United States
Austin
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Robert Olesen wrote:
I'm pretty sure that such tiles are meant to limit the available technologies...

This.

2 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gar Per
United States
Greenwood
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Robert Olesen wrote:
The rules say nothing about discarding technology tiles that cannot be picked by any player.


Noboby said that they did. He suggested a house rule/variant. By their very nature, house rules quite often break the designer's intent. Whether it makes the game better or not is a debatable thing for each person to choose, but I've not yet met the perfect game, so sometimes house rules are worth considering. Games are meant to be fun, so if a house rule makes the game more fun for your group without breaking the game, I say go for it whether it is in the rules or not.

I think his tweak is minor and may try it just to see how it works. If you think it makes the game worse, well that is ok too,
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Olesen
Denmark
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nate_lockhart wrote:
Robert Olesen wrote:
The rules say nothing about discarding technology tiles that cannot be picked by any player.


Noboby said that they did. He suggested a house rule/variant

Well, this is posted in the Rules subforum, so I thought it prudent to point out how I read the rules on this matter.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gar Per
United States
Greenwood
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Robert Olesen wrote:
nate_lockhart wrote:
Robert Olesen wrote:
The rules say nothing about discarding technology tiles that cannot be picked by any player.


Noboby said that they did. He suggested a house rule/variant

Well, this is posted in the Rules subforum, so I thought it prudent to point out how I read the rules on this matter.


Quite true. Didn't notice the subforum, was just clicking through subscriptions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter O
United States
Oakland
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's a house rule and one that has been suggested before, so you're not alone in your thinking. The way the core rules are written creates different tech dynamics depending upon the number of players. Should you do your house rule in 6 player you will find you don't have enough tech in the bag at the end of the game. In 2-4 player counts some tech has a chance of never appearing at all. Essentially do what you find to be fun for your group. Just be clear with your play group what is house rule and what isn't for the chance they play with a different group playing different rules. Also know that strategies can be highly affected by what techs are even available, so futzing with tech counts will alter your perception of the game relative to those playing by core rules. It's a complex system so it can be really difficult to ascertain the fallout from house rules.

As for blinging your board with actual chits, the expansion comes with SOME extra base game tech tiles to accommodate 7-9 player games. Whether this is enough to bling everyone's board is questionable. But you could certainly do your own when not playing with greater than 6.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jelle Kaptijn
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Robert Olesen wrote:
nate_lockhart wrote:
Noboby said that they did. He suggested a house rule/variant
Well, this is posted in the Rules subforum, so I thought it prudent to point out how I read the rules on this matter.

You're both right. I thought it was a houserule, but i was not entirely sure about that so i chose the rules subforum. It was kind of a mix between checking the rules and asking your opinion about our (house)rule.

@tranenturm: thanks for the reaction. That captures the range of my question quite well. After all, i think we will stick to the normal rules from now on.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.