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Subject: Re: the over-powered "Lord of Waterdeep" ??? rss

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John Van Wagoner
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let me start out by saying i LOVE this game, and everyone we've taught it to has as well (i've given 3 away as gifts already, and probably will being sending a few more out at Christmas; everyone seems to really enjoy the game the more they play and regardless of "gaming expertise")...and yes, i really do think that the "Lord" that gets all his/her bonus pts by simply controlling buildings (don't remember the actual name right now) is a rather large advantage, we simply try and make everyone (esp if "new to the game") aware of that advantage and how we all, for our own selfish good, can work to min. the damage...

only problem with that is sometimes you have to do things you don't want, just to "block"...and if a few players aren't playing attention that "Lord" can usually walk away with very high score...

so...what i did, since those Lord cards are sleeved anyhow, is made an additional Lord with the same bonus objective...and since we normally play with 4-5 players, it's fairly frequent that both are "in play", and if so they tend to kind of police each other...any thoughts?

and again, NOT a complaint at all...and that particular Lord does not "break" (in any way) the game, but it is the one Lord that everyone wants on the blind draw...
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Lee Fisher
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Imbalanced?
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James W
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You are locked in group-think. Instead of innovating, you are stuck in the mindset that you need to combat her directly. That affects your entire strategy so it slows down your scoring.

I think that if you remove that extra Leader of yours and just force everyone to play normally, you will soon find out that she is not strong at all.
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John Van Wagoner
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lfisher wrote:
no...
 
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Scott Slater
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I have noticed the builder lord tends to win the games where he is present. I'm still on the fence as to whether it's unbalanced or simply a opportunistic play style that would evaporate if buildings were more hotly contested. The second builder lord is an interesting solution, could add a bluff element (taking buildings to make other people waste resource by taking it away, or make the builder lord think he has a rival).

I love the game, too - it's become my de facto worker placement gateway.
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John Van Wagoner
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ninthcircle wrote:
I have noticed the builder lord tends to win the games where he is present. I'm still on the fence as to whether it's unbalanced or simply a opportunistic play style that would evaporate if buildings were more hotly contested. The second builder lord is an interesting solution, could add a bluff element (taking buildings to make other people waste resource by taking it away, or make the builder lord think he has a rival).

I love the game, too - it's become my de facto worker placement gateway.


scott, i don't think any "inbalance" is a deal-breaker at all, just a large advantage, but anyone playing must be alert and paying attention, or (based on my 25+ min games played) that "Lord" will very frequently win...

when i am lucky enough to draw that Lord, i obv do everything i can to build the buildings (always going for $$ and 1st turn when poss) and play "on" buildings or use cards that let me take control of buildings already placed (or do an action that's already been done, if someone beat me to the "build" action)...i save my meeples/cubes to use as VP's at end of the game (unless there's a mid-level quest i can complete by end of the same turn)...and if i'm also lucky enough to draw a card forcing someone to complete a mandatory quest, i hold that until the last round, make sure i'm 1 of the 3 in the harbor, and then drop that card on whomever is next to me in scoring (or someone within 20/25 pts, with alot of meeples/cubes in the tavern, and who just might be planning on completing a 20/25 pt quest last round)...
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John Sugden
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Her relative 'power' is a function ofth strategy others employ. If people let her have buildings willy-nilly, she is very strong. However, if others make it somewhat difficult for her to build buildings, then she is pretty well balanced. If, on the other hand, people agressively uild buildings around her, she is at a large disadvatage.

Given that building buildings early in the game is a very strong play for any player (generally), when other players employ strong stategy she is usually balanced or at a disadvantage.
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Robert Manore
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Warlord beats Troll, Troll beats Elf, Elf beats Water Sprite, and basically everything else beats Enchanted Bunny.
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I play LoW quite often with my wife so I really enjoy it and have had a chance to play several different Lords.

Just this past Saturday, we played a 4p game with another couple and I received the building Lord for the first time. In the end, I built 8 advanced buildings and completed a Piety Plot Quest, 1 Piety Quest worth 25 VP, and another quest for 10 VP. I got smoked by my wife. Her first win. So I dsgree that the building Lord is overpowered.
 
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Mike Collins
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jgsugden wrote:
Given that building buildings early in the game is a very strong play for any player (generally) [...]

This. I genuinely don't understand how she's considered an overpowered Lord. It was obvious right from our very first play that, in the first half of the game at least, building new buildings is a very useful thing to do, and it's very often the first action chosen by the first or second player. I can't imagine how a table full of players are ignoring buildings, allowing the one player who gets the bonus to acquire both the buildings and the necessary money to build them.

Her card has come up several times in the games we've played, and its recipient has never, AFAICR, won.

Edit: admittedly, there are some rare specific circumstances that enable a player to build buildings even if others are taking the Builder's Hall space, and in those cases she has a huge advantage. I'd support those being errata'd to stop it happening. That doesn't mean she's overpowered in general.
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John Van Wagoner
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mike...quite often the avail buildings are not very good (and not worth the action; as opposed to gaining cubes/quests needed and/or going to the harbor to take adv of the "extra placement"); and sometimes the bldgs avail simply don't give you a reward good enough to spend your money and give up the action...but, anyone with the "bldg lord" simply doesn't care and will buy any bldg (pref the "cheaper the better")...that's all...not saying anything is broken, but after many many plays everyone we've played with has agreed that that is the lord they'd want (all the others are basically the same)...and i would say that in games where she's been drawn/selected that lord has come in 1st or 2nd in scoring at least 80% of the time...and we've found that adding a 2nd lord (with the same "powers" as her) probably puts both in play maybe 40% of the time, and when that happens they even each other out with themselves (and the other lords)...

when i have that lord i never have finished with less than 6 bldgs (36 extra VP), and most times 7-8...other players have to set aside what they'd really like to do to stop me, and usually that wears thin (unless they're all on board and are willing to split the task)...and that 36-48 extra VP's will not be cancelled by any other lord completing their factions advantage at 4 VP per; they may end up with 3-5 quests completed in either of the two desired factions (and that's only an extra 12-20 VP's)...so even if i hit my low (6 bldgs) i start with 36 VP when we start to tally at game's end, and most others start at maybe 15 VP or so...so as long as i can stay kind of close on quests (and adventurers in tavern, etc.) i normally will finish either 1st or 2nd...i just need to make sure i grab a bldg whenever poss, try to play 1st (or 2nd is ok normally), and use the harbor (to either grab coins left on board that others didn't need as much, keep the card supply coming in, and grab money avail when others had other things they pref doing with my extra placement at turn's end)...
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Lee Fisher
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John how many quests are non-Larissa players generally completing?
 
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John Van Wagoner
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lfisher wrote:
John how many quests are non-Larissa players generally completing?
normally 5-6...assume everyone gets stuck with a mandatory, then there's usually a few turns needed just to "re-supply" (cash, cubes to complete the quests)...many times i can be larissa and another player has both a 25VP and 20VP done; as long as i have maybe 2 mid-level quests done and a lot of adv. in my tavern at game's end (1 VP/ea) i'll normally win...(when focusing on bldgs i'm, everything being equal, trying to get ones that generate cash or adv when landed on...and if i dedicate maybe 1 action/token per turn to adding to the tavern i can normally still concentrate on buying bldgs and being 1st, and then by turn 3/4 almost completing a mid-level quest per turn...

also, if i'm not focused on trying for the 20/25 VP quests i can't be blindsided on last turn by the dreaded "mandatory quest" (that can be a game changer if 2-3 people are close and heading into last turn or so)(as much as i might be tempted, unless i draw 2 of them i'm saving 1 for "end of game" to target the closest competition...just have to make sure i grab 1 of the 3 harbor spots, which usually works out since on last turn i don't care anymore about going 1st next round!! smile)
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Lee Fisher
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5-6 Quests per game is pretty low. You are allowing people to complete them on each placement and not just once per round right?
 
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John Van Wagoner
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lfisher wrote:
5-6 Quests per game is pretty low. You are allowing people to complete them on each placement and not just once per round right?
we've always played only 1 per round!!! did we get that wrong?? (smile)...oh crap...we've played only 1 quest, and that at the end of each round...i don't have the rules handy, so would you mind (or anyone) double-checking that? thanks...

well...if we have it wrong then it's def "on me" (i'm the only one who reads the rules...or maybe "doesn't read all of them" in this case)...
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Lee Fisher
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John_VW wrote:
lfisher wrote:
5-6 Quests per game is pretty low. You are allowing people to complete them on each placement and not just once per round right?
we've always played only 1 per round!!! did we get that wrong?? (smile)...oh crap...we've played only 1 quest, and that at the end of each round...i don't have the rules handy, so would you mind (or anyone) double-checking that? thanks...

well...if we have it wrong then it's def "on me" (i'm the only one who reads the rules...or maybe "doesn't read all of them" in this case)...


Ah yes this explains a lot!
This is a very commonly missed rule. Here was one of the discussions about it.
Only play one quest per round, including mandatory ones as well?
 
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John Van Wagoner
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well, i read all 3 pages of the link (see above) and still am not sure...several people said "You cannot complete more than one Quest on your turn" is really talking about "per round" (a typo)...has the designer chimed in on this at all? (only asking because "as we've played it", 1 quest per round, the game is great!! and usually very tight/close until the end)...i suppose we could trying playing it correctly (hey, why not??)(smile)...but unless i'm positive i almost hate to mess with such a good thing...so, has anyone involved in making the game actually said this is not a mistake/typo, and that they meant for us to be able to complete 5+ quests per turn (for example, 2 player game)? thanks...
 
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Lee Fisher
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John_VW wrote:
well, i read all 3 pages of the link (see above) and still am not sure...several people said "You cannot complete more than one Quest on your turn" is really talking about "per round" (a typo)...has the designer chimed in on this at all? (only asking because "as we've played it", 1 quest per round, the game is great!! and usually very tight/close until the end)...i suppose we could trying playing it correctly (hey, why not??)(smile)...but unless i'm positive i almost hate to mess with such a good thing...so, has anyone involved in making the game actually said this is not a mistake/typo, and that they meant for us to be able to complete 5+ quests per turn (for example, 2 player game)? thanks...


OK I found the designer comment

Re: Waterdeep harbor and quests
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David K.
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It's true that you cannot complete more than one quest on your turn.

A turn consists of placing and agent and then choosing to complete a quest if you have collected the required adventurers.

There are multiple turns in a round. There are 8 rounds in the game.

There is no way to complete 5+ quests on a single turn. The designers meant for it to be that way.

It's correctly spelled out in the rulebook. You are free to house rule anyway you like, but we prefer to play it as written, the final scores are higher, and we like high scoring games.

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John Van Wagoner
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Shadowen wrote:
It's true that you cannot complete more than one quest on your turn.

A turn consists of placing and agent and then choosing to complete a quest if you have collected the required adventurers.

There are multiple turns in a round. There are 8 rounds in the game.

There is no way to complete 5+ quests on a single turn. The designers meant for it to be that way.

It's correctly spelled out in the rulebook. You are free to house rule anyway you like, but we prefer to play it as written, the final scores are higher, and we like high scoring games.

why not (5 quests in a turn)...2 players, 5 agents (after rd 4)...and some can be re-placed (via harbor or building effect), so it seems 5+ is possible...
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John Van Wagoner
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lfisher wrote:
John_VW wrote:
well, i read all 3 pages of the link (see above) and still am not sure...several people said "You cannot complete more than one Quest on your turn" is really talking about "per round" (a typo)...has the designer chimed in on this at all? (only asking because "as we've played it", 1 quest per round, the game is great!! and usually very tight/close until the end)...i suppose we could trying playing it correctly (hey, why not??)(smile)...but unless i'm positive i almost hate to mess with such a good thing...so, has anyone involved in making the game actually said this is not a mistake/typo, and that they meant for us to be able to complete 5+ quests per turn (for example, 2 player game)? thanks...


OK I found the designer comment

Re: Waterdeep harbor and quests
thanks!!! (i think) :-)
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Plei Forejoy
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The Rulebook is quite clear to me on the things you can do in a Turn/Round. My group's LoW games, hence, went quite smoothly and we have yet to see Larissa as an overwhelming Lord to play against.

In one Round, the players take their Turns to deploy all of their Agents. The Round does not end until all possible Turns have been taken. [p. 8, Start of Round; p. 11, End of Round]

In each Turn, the player must deploy an agent to a building, or reassign an Agent from Waterdeep Harbor (this takes place after all Agents have initially been deployed). [p. 8, Actions in a Turn] At the end of the player's turn, he or she may complete one Quest if his or her resources allow it. [p. 10, Complete Quest]
 
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John Van Wagoner
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ok..."works for me"...i only hpoe that after playing the game the right way i enjoy it as much!!! (smile)...too bad though, dropping "mandatory quests" on people last round just won't bring on the same amount of fowl language anymore!!! (it was pretty nasty, playing "wrongly" as we were!!!)
 
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