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Subject: Brass or Manhattan Project rss

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Tom O'Neill
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Not a big worker placement type gamer. But these 2 games have peaked my interest. I like the look of both games. But I dont think I want to buy both.
Give me the run down of your thoughts of each and which would be the better buy.

I like strategy games mostly. My last purchase was Eclipse. Before that was dominion, Fortress America and Munchkin.
 
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Chris Ferejohn
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Well Brass is by no definition or stretch a worker placement game. Haven't played Manhattan Project, so I can't compare (though Brass is brilliant).
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Lucas Townsend
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Definitely Manhattan Project. Why? The mechanics are excellently thought out, the gameplay is simple once you know what you're doing, it plays in about in hour and a half, and the theme and art is excellent. It just so happens to have a reboot on Kickstarter right now, with an expansion, so jump on now: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/miniongames/the-manhatta...

Brass looks awesome on paper. But then you read the rules. And you read them again. And again. And maybe again. Then you'll try to play. And take four hours. And then read the rules again. Try it again the next day, and you'll find it just doesn't make sense. It looks cool, and some mechanics are interesting, but there are so many little tiny finnicky things that require you to consult the rulebook six thousand times, such as the Liverpool connection, and where Rails and Canals can and can't be built, what happens on the cotton market, and how iron magically appears but coal doesn't. It's just demoralizing and not that fun.
 
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Jon G
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I've never played MP, but they have some strong differences:
- MP is worker placement, Brass is not (not even indirectly)
- MP seems to involve a lot of direct interaction & screwage (espionage & bombers), while Brass is more about strategic cooperation through supply & demand (somebody used the term coopetition
- In MP, each player has their own worker pool and buildings (plus those on the board). In Brass, each player is at a tech level for each building type, but all buildings share the same map
- Brass is very spatially/map based. MP doesn't have much of a map

Brass is one of my top 5 games, deep and beautifully balanced, and it's a fantastic game for a heavy game group. But it is a bit dry. If your group wants theme and direct attacks, MP might be a better fit.
 
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Paul Incao
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If you and your group are up for rules heavy games, Brass is as good as it gets IMHO. It is not a worker placement game and has a strong economic industry/route building theme.

Manhattan Project is a solid medium weight worker placement game with good player interaction.

 
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Tim Bueschel
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I have did a demo of Age of Industry (Brass light) and it is not anything like Manhattan Project. I really thought I would like Brass/Age of industry and ended up hating it and wishing it would end. It is more of a train game than a euro style worker placement.

On the other hand I loved Manhattan Project there was a lot of options and you had to really think about your next move. The art makes it appear simpler than it actually plays. It is lighter and easier to play than Brass/Age of Industry.

It is really hard to compare the two as they are so different.

If you enjoy fairly complex games go with Brass if you like it a little lighter (who can resist bombing your opponents) go with Manhattan Project which would be my choice
 
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Jon G
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Empires wrote:

Brass looks awesome on paper. But then you read the rules. And you read them again. And again. And maybe again. Then you'll try to play. And take four hours. And then read the rules again. Try it again the next day, and you'll find it just doesn't make sense. It looks cool, and some mechanics are interesting, but there are so many little tiny finnicky things that require you to consult the rulebook six thousand times, such as the Liverpool connection, and where Rails and Canals can and can't be built, what happens on the cotton market, and how iron magically appears but coal doesn't. It's just demoralizing and not that fun.


The rulebook is a mess if you don't think the way Martin does, but it's not that complicated, and the rule quirks are supposed to be thematic. See: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/7180634#7180634

I think part of the problem is that the entire game is opaque to new players, so the rules are harder to digest that in more transparent games.
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I like Brass, but the rules are really hard to keep straight.
 
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Det var bara en hake...
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I think the quirkiness and opacity of the Brass rules are both heavily exaggerated. The game is also brilliant.
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Looking at these stars suddenly dwarfed my own troubles and all the gravities of terrestrial life. I thought of their unfathomable distance, and the slow inevitable drift of their movements out of the unknown past into the unknown future. H.G. Wells
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The Brass rulebook lists 15 rules it calls "easy to forget".

In contrast Hansa Teutonica has essentially two rules that are easily forgotten, replacing the bonus chip, and moving the filled city marker. The game has a rule to fix things if a bonus chip is forgotten, and the city marker has never effected a game I have played.

And in Caylus, the only things one could forget are distributing income, and scoring a section of the castle. I know I have forgotten to distribute income at times, but can scarcely imagine not scoring a section.

I think those two games are closer to the level of complexity I am comfortable with.
 
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Tom O'Neill
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Great analysis so far. Excellent. Im enjoying the comparison. I was a little off on my understanding of Brass. I knew it was more in depth then MP, but thought it was along the same lines. But it does sound very different.
The fact that it was brought to my attention that it is a heavy game is very enlightening. Im not sure I could keep up with lots of rules. Unfortunately, my 20s were hard on my brain.

I saw MP on KS and have it bookmarked. I get paid the 31st and need to make my decision by then. If I choose MP I want in on the $75 level of the KS project.




 
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frumpish wrote:
The Brass rulebook lists 15 rules it calls "easy to forget".


It does, but doesn't that just mean you're less likely to actually forget them? I don't really see why the peculiarities that are brought up - such as only being able to build canals where there are canals on the board, iron teleporting but not coal, ghost link providing connectedness only in Birkenhead - should cause more lasting perplexity than procedural specifics in pretty much any Eurogame, let alone the bewilderment reflected in Lucas's post above. Was the rulebook different before the Eagle Games edition, perhaps?
 
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Cole Gibbons
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Is the Brass rulebook anywhere online? I too am interested in the game (especially with the upcoming reprint), but I can't seem to find the rules to pre-read...
 
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Sam
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English rulebook PDF.

frumpish wrote:
The Brass rulebook lists 15 rules it calls "easy to forget".

In contrast Hansa Teutonica has essentially two rules that are easily forgotten

Sorry, but no way. Most of the "easy to forget" rules listed for Brass would be trivially remembered with a player aid or are so basic and core to gameplay that you won't forget them for long -- "money you spend goes in the Amount Spent box", for heaven's sake...

I have taught Hansa Teutonica many times and it has just about as much crap to remember as Brass -- the different ways to score points, the functions of the different bonus markers, the different actions, that you can displace on placement but not on movement, the bonus for cross-country connection, etc. It's hard on new players.

It only seems worse in Brass because the really hard-to-remember/explain rules are highly situational exceptions, such as the virtual Birkenhead link and not taking loans at the end of the game, and because there is nothing on the components to indicate the different rules for buying/selling/flipping different things.

It just needs a player aid.
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Jon G
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There's a very nice Brass server at http://brass.orderofthehammer.com

Simple, intuitive interface, handles all the rules for you. Create a login, start a new game with the default settings, and call it "Teach me to play." You'll have a full game in a few hours, and can learn on the fly.
 
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Sicaria Occaeco
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Empires wrote:
Brass looks awesome on paper. But then you read the rules. And you read them again. And again. And maybe again. Then you'll try to play. And take four hours. And then read the rules again. Try it again the next day, and you'll find it just doesn't make sense.


I could say the same thing about my first play of Puerto Rico.


Empires wrote:

It looks cool, and some mechanics are interesting, but there are so many little tiny finnicky things that require you to consult the rulebook six thousand times, such as the Liverpool connection, and where Rails and Canals can and can't be built, what happens on the cotton market, and how iron magically appears but coal doesn't. It's just demoralizing and not that fun.


This is greatly exaggerated. And where Rails and Canals can be built? They're printed right on the map. If you can build a canal there's a river right there. If you can build a rail there's a track right there.


frumpish wrote:
I like Brass, but the rules are really hard to keep straight.


frumpish wrote:
The Brass rulebook lists 15 rules it calls "easy to forget".


Which makes them all the easier to quickly go over this list and remember them.

Brass is a bit tricky to learn at first but really like mentioned it's been exaggerated. It's a game I always enjoy and it's getting a reprint.

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Matthew Tadyshak
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Brass is an awesome game. The rules are actually pretty easy, just make sure to download one of the fan-made summary sheets as the rulebook isn't the best.

Manhattan Project is decent. Although, I don't think it stays interesting for long it's basically just an efficiency race that doesn't have much strategy variation. Plus, the special attack mechanic is quite worthless most of the time at it's a waste of resources.
 
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Shane Larsen
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Tarc wrote:
Not a big worker placement type gamer.


Umm, then I recommend Brass.
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Matt Brown
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NBAfan wrote:
Manhattan Project is decent. Although, I don't think it stays interesting for long it's basically just an efficiency race that doesn't have much strategy variation. Plus, the special attack mechanic is quite worthless most of the time at it's a waste of resources.


Since both are on my wishlist, I think I have the negatives of Brass down as they have already been brought up. Anybody want to expand on the negatives of TMP? It seems like people are saying as long as you have fighters it really cuts down on the screwage(a main selling point to me), and then it's mostly a yellow cake gathering game.
 
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