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Subject: Trashing Band of Misfits (as Fortress) clarification needed rss

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Pawel Pawlak
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As we know, Band of Misfits mimicks a selected card until it leaves play (discarding, trashing, etc). The official FAQ in the rulebook says:
Quote:
For example, if you use Procession to play Band of Misfits twice and choose Fortress the first time, you will automatically replay it as Fortress, then trash the Band of Misfits, return it to your hand (it is a Fortress when it's trashed, and Fortress has a when-trashed ability that returns it to your hand), and gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress).
(emphasis mine)

That seems odd, because when you trash BoM(as Fortress) it leaves play and is not a Fortress anymore, so it cannot return to you hand. One may say, that trashing and returning happen at the same time, but this is what the official FAQ says about Fortress:
Quote:
If this is trashed, you take it from the trash and put it into your hand.
(emphasis mine)

So, it first lands on the trash pile, and then you take it back. It clearly leaves play, so BoM should revert back to itself and cannot be taken back.

Which rule should then be followed?
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Simon Kamber
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m_knox wrote:
As we know, Band of Misfits mimicks a selected card until it leaves play (discarding, trashing, etc). The official FAQ in the rulebook says:
Quote:
For example, if you use Procession to play Band of Misfits twice and choose Fortress the first time, you will automatically replay it as Fortress, then trash the Band of Misfits, return it to your hand (it is a Fortress when it's trashed, and Fortress has a when-trashed ability that returns it to your hand), and gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress).
(emphasis mine)

That seems odd, because when you trash BoM(as Fortress) it leaves play and is not a Fortress anymore, so it cannot return to you hand. One may say, that trashing and returning happen at the same time, but this is what the official FAQ says about Fortress:
Quote:
If this is trashed, you take it from the trash and put it into your hand.
(emphasis mine)

So, it first lands on the trash pile, and then you take it back. It clearly leaves play, so BoM should revert back to itself and cannot be taken back.

Which rule should then be followed?


The 'return to your hand' happens when it is being trashed. The reverting to a Band of Misfits happens after it has been trashed. Since the Fortress FAQ says that you return it from the trash to your hand, that would imply that the 'the fortress is being trashed' extends beyond the card actually being put into the trash pile, and covers the whole instruction of 'trash that card'.

In other words: The ruling under Band of Misfits is the more specific one, and should be followed.
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Pawel Pawlak
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But being on the trash pile implies, that it left play, and should revert back to itself. It's like you paint a black stone white and throw it into a river - when you catch it flying, you'd be holding a white stone, but when you take it out of water - the stone would be black again. And the Fortress FAQ clearly says "take it from the trash" ("take it out of water").
But I'm not a native speaker, I might be missing something...
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Simon Kamber
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m_knox wrote:
But being on the trash pile implies, that it left play, and should revert back to itself. It's like you paint a black stone white and throw it into a river - when you catch it flying, you'd be holding a white stone, but when you take it out of water - the stone would be black again. And the Fortress FAQ clearly says "take it from the trash" ("take it out of water").
But I'm not a native speaker, I might be missing something...


You are not missing something, per se. In the absense of the BoM clarification, I would agree with you. But the BoM clarification implies that the BoM only reverts to its original state after the resolution of the instruction that made it leave play.

In other words, it is still considered to be a 'BoM-as-Fortress-in-the-process-of-being-trashed' until it has finished being trashed, and this includes the on-trash effect. The condition to revert BoM only takes place between instructions, because instructions happen instantly.

As an algorithm, you could view it like this:

Procession is played
- Band of Misfits is played
-- Band of misfits becomes a Fortress
(has BoM left play? No. Still a fortress)
-- The fortress is played once.
(has BoM left play? No. Still a fortress)
--- Fortress gives +1 card
(has BoM left play? No. Still a fortress)
--- Fortress gives +2 actions
(has BoM left play? No. Still a fortress)
-- The fortress is played again.
(has BoM left play? No. Still a fortress)
--- Fortress gives +1 card
(has BoM left play? No. Still a fortress)
--- Fortress gives +2 actions
(has BoM left play? No. Still a fortress)
- Procession trashes the fortress, putting it in the trash, and from there to the players hand, cf. the on-trash effect.
(has BoM left play? Yes it has. It is now a BoM again)
- Procession gains a card costing more than the ... BoM.

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Gabriel Manasan
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The black stone is painted with the instruction, "when this stone goes into the river, retrieve it". You check for these instructions before you throw it, not when it is already in the river. Once it is in the river, the instructions disappear, but you have already read and still remember them.
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Simon Kamber
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Stormcow wrote:
The black stone is painted with the instruction, "when this stone goes into the river, retrieve it". You check for these instructions before you throw it, not when it is already in the river. Once it is in the river, the instructions disappear, but you have already read and still remember them.

Which is all well and good, but to keep the analogy, since the next part of the instruction assumes that the stone is white, you have to define when you forget that it was ever black.

As far as I can see, the most consistent interpretation is that you check after every instruction resolution.
 
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Nevin Steindam
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I think the best interpretation is to say that the Fortress FAQ was mis-worded. You put the Fortress in your hand as it's being Trashed, so it never actually touches the Trash pile. The card leaves play after it is Trashed, so Band of Misfits doesn't revert to itself until it reaches your hand. (I still don't know whether other "after this is Trashed" effects would happen before or after the card leaves play by ending up in your hand. Fortunately, that situation doesn't matter yet.)

At least, if I were designing a computer implementation, I would code it that way to meet the instructions as closely as possible. That's my standard for any Dominion rules.
 
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The Compulsive Completist
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What happens if you paint a black stone white and throw it at a blue dog?
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Simon Kamber
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Hockey Mask wrote:
What happens if you paint a black stone white and throw it at a blue dog?


Is the dog still blue after having been hit by a white stone which is black until it hits the water?
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Simon Kamber
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TheNevin wrote:
I think the best interpretation is to say that the Fortress FAQ was mis-worded. You put the Fortress in your hand as it's being Trashed, so it never actually touches the Trash pile. The card leaves play after it is Trashed, so Band of Misfits doesn't revert to itself until it reaches your hand. (I still don't know whether other "after this is Trashed" effects would happen before or after the card leaves play by ending up in your hand. Fortunately, that situation doesn't matter yet.)

At least, if I were designing a computer implementation, I would code it that way to meet the instructions as closely as possible. That's my standard for any Dominion rules.


That is one interpretation. However, since the fortress does actually get trashed, and since being trashed implies being put into the trash pile, the wording in the FAQ is also valid.
 
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Pere
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Dulkal wrote:
Hockey Mask wrote:
What happens if you paint a black stone white and throw it at a blue dog?


Is the dog still blue after having been hit by a white stone which is black until it hits the water?


Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
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Simon Kamber
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senseless wrote:
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?


No.
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Eric Matthews
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This case is an exception to the normal rules, so trying to explain the logic with a metaphor is less helpful than it normally would be with this game.

Band of Misfits has a unique effect in Dominion and in order to deal with the inevitable collision with other special effects (like Procession)it has special rules for those cases.

If you use Throne Room, King's Court, or Procession to play a Band of Misfits card multiple times, you only pick what to play it as the first time.

It is not entirely consistent with the "in play" rules, but it doesn't have to be, because it has it's own special rule for those cases specified right there in the rulebook: "you only pick what to play it as the first time".

Personally I'd have preferred the rulebook formatted with exceptions like this called out or bolded or otherwise identified as special cases so that people didn't spend too much time trying to extrapolate a overarching rule for something that is an exception.

If you prefer:

Throne room, kings court, and procession are special paints that do not wear off when the rock is thrown in the water; instead they wear off during clean-up.
 
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Simon Kamber
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Ganybyte wrote:
If you use Throne Room, King's Court, or Procession to play a Band of Misfits card multiple times, you only pick what to play it as the first time.

It is not entirely consistent with the "in play" rules, but it doesn't have to be, because it has it's own special rule for those cases specified right there in the rulebook: "you only pick what to play it as the first time".

Personally I'd have preferred the rulebook formatted with exceptions like this called out or bolded or otherwise identified as special cases so that people didn't spend too much time trying to extrapolate a overarching rule for something that is an exception.

If you prefer:

Throne room, kings court, and procession are special paints that do not wear off when the rock is thrown in the water; instead they wear off during clean-up.


That is indeed an exception, but it is an exception for a different case, namely the one where the card BoM is emulating moves itself during the first activation.

In cases like the fortress, the effect is pretty consistent as far as the double-play goes, because the card remains in play. The trouble appears when procession trashes it afterwards.

The trick is that the special paint DOES wear off. Procession specifically gains a card costing one more than the cost of the BoM rather than the fortress, because the paint wears off before the gain effect. But it only realizes that the paint has worn off after the trash instruction, so it trashes the BoM as if it were a fortress: To the players hand via the trash pile.
 
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Pawel Pawlak
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Stormcow wrote:
The black stone is painted with the instruction, "when this stone goes into the river, retrieve it". You check for these instructions before you throw it, not when it is already in the river. Once it is in the river, the instructions disappear, but you have already read and still remember them.

Nope. In your case the stone is black, but has the instructions of the white stone painted on it. This is not how it should be. The whole stone is different (BoM not only mimicks the workings of the selected card, it also gets the card's name, type and cost - it does not play as the selected card, it IS the selected card). So you throw a white stone, but after it lands in water you cannot find this white stone, because it lost its paint and is black again.
 
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Pawel Pawlak
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OK, here's another one. The FAQ for Possession says:
Quote:
During the Possessed turn, whenever one of that player's cards is trashed, set it aside, and that player puts it into his discard pile at the end of the turn, after Clean-up.


Does the trashed Fortress go back to the (possessed) player's hand? I think not. Two things try to happen at the same time: setting aside (SA) and getting back (GB) to the hand. You resolve SA first - the Fortress cannot get back, because it is not in the trash pile (and the FAQ says "take it from the trash"). So, you resolve GB first, but then you have to set it aside. Is this correct?
 
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Jarrod Babel
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this is WHY there's a FAQ for this situation, since it's NOT a clear cut decision/reason why it works this way. So no reason to look for deeper meaning IMHO.
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Simon Kamber
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m_knox wrote:
OK, here's another one. The FAQ for Possession says:
Quote:
During the Possessed turn, whenever one of that player's cards is trashed, set it aside, and that player puts it into his discard pile at the end of the turn, after Clean-up.


Does the trashed Fortress go back to the (possessed) player's hand? I think not. Two things try to happen at the same time: setting aside (SA) and getting back (GB) to the hand. You resolve SA first - the Fortress cannot get back, because it is not in the trash pile (and the FAQ says "take it from the trash"). So, you resolve GB first, but then you have to set it aside. Is this correct?


I can't find the reference off the cuff, but I'm pretty sure Donald X clarified that yes, the card is trashed and the possessed player gets the 'when trashed' effect (which of course benefits the possessing player)

jbabel wrote:
this is WHY there's a FAQ for this situation, since it's NOT a clear cut decision/reason why it works this way. So no reason to look for deeper meaning IMHO.


It may not be obvious. That does not mean that there is no deeper meaning, though.
 
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Pawel Pawlak
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Dulkal wrote:
m_knox wrote:
OK, here's another one. The FAQ for Possession says:
Quote:
During the Possessed turn, whenever one of that player's cards is trashed, set it aside, and that player puts it into his discard pile at the end of the turn, after Clean-up.


Does the trashed Fortress go back to the (possessed) player's hand? I think not. Two things try to happen at the same time: setting aside (SA) and getting back (GB) to the hand. You resolve SA first - the Fortress cannot get back, because it is not in the trash pile (and the FAQ says "take it from the trash"). So, you resolve GB first, but then you have to set it aside. Is this correct?


I can't find the reference off the cuff, but I'm pretty sure Donald X clarified that yes, the card is trashed and the possessed player gets the 'when trashed' effect (which of course benefits the possessing player)

I know that the cards would get their on-trash effects triggered, but it's this specific case, where a card cannot fulfill its on-trash effect - it cannot find itself on the trash (because it has been set aside by the additional on-trash effect that came from the possession). This leads us back to:
TheNevin wrote:
I think the best interpretation is to say that the Fortress FAQ was mis-worded.

There's only one person that can confirm this...
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Eric Matthews
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Seems like too much lawyering to my ears. The simple answer is that the fortress works as it normally would.

The set aside cards are essentially part of the trash until they go back to the discard pile after the turn is over. I would imagine it is the same with other cards like graverobber, etc.

The spirit of the set aside pile itself is just to keep possessers from eliminating the cards of the possessed. As far as I'm concerned it is a trash during that turn for all intents and purposes. It's been established the possessed gets on trash benefits, and the fortress shouldn't normally lose itself via the lost track rule since cards don't lose themselves. Also when things happen at the same time it is up to the player --in is case the possessor-- to decide the order.

I do get the argument that since Possession moves it into the set aside pile fortress can lose itself, but it just sounds wrong and the explanation seems overly complicated as to the spirit of both cards.
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Eric Matthews
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Dulkal wrote:


It may not be obvious. That does not mean that there is no deeper meaning, though.

Doesn't mean there is either...
 
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Ted Dickinson
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This exact question came up during a game at GenCon. It just so happened that this game involved several of RGG's volunteers for the con and Jay Tummelson, who for obvious reasons had Donald X.'s phone number. The resolution of that call was that Band of Misfits behaves exactly as if it were a Fortress during the entire action, meaning that it will indeed go back to the player's hand.

I know that may not be as satisfying as an answer from Donald X. here himself (and I would love to see him do so), but if you're willing to take a volunteer's second-hand report, there you go.
 
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Donald X.
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m_knox wrote:
As we know, Band of Misfits mimicks a selected card until it leaves play (discarding, trashing, etc). The official FAQ in the rulebook says:
Quote:
For example, if you use Procession to play Band of Misfits twice and choose Fortress the first time, you will automatically replay it as Fortress, then trash the Band of Misfits, return it to your hand (it is a Fortress when it's trashed, and Fortress has a when-trashed ability that returns it to your hand), and gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress).
(emphasis mine)

That seems odd, because when you trash BoM(as Fortress) it leaves play and is not a Fortress anymore, so it cannot return to you hand. One may say, that trashing and returning happen at the same time, but this is what the official FAQ says about Fortress:
Quote:
If this is trashed, you take it from the trash and put it into your hand.
(emphasis mine)

So, it first lands on the trash pile, and then you take it back. It clearly leaves play, so BoM should revert back to itself and cannot be taken back.

Which rule should then be followed?

Both! It should be no surprise that I agree with the rulebook.

Band of Misfits-as-Fortress is trashed. You trashed a Fortress so you should return it to your hand. In the trash this particular Fortress happens to now be a Band of Misfits; doesn't matter, when you trashed it it was a Fortress, when that happens you're supposed to return the card to your hand, so you do.
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Pawel Pawlak
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I'm still not convinced. I'm trashing a (fake) Fortress and am supposed to take the Fortress from the trash, but there ain't no Fortress in the trash (it's a band of Misfits there). Your ruling is not reasonable to me, but hey, I'm nobody. I'll play by your ruling anyway.
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Donald X.
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m_knox wrote:
I'm still not convinced. I'm trashing a (fake) Fortress and am supposed to take the Fortress from the trash, but there ain't no Fortress in the trash (it's a band of Misfits there). Your ruling is not reasonable to me, but hey, I'm nobody. I'll play by your ruling anyway.

Fortress just refers to "this." Like, when Band of Misfits-as-Fortress is put into the trash and reverts to being Band of Misfits, you, you personally, still know what card we're talking about, right? You aren't all "where did it go?" The ability doesn't have that problem either.
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