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Subject: Chained Swarm Tactics rss

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Jake Di Toro
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This came up in the FFG forums, but I figured I'd see what the opinions are here.

Scenario: Wedge, Luke, and Rookie Pilot are in tight formation. Both Wedge and Luke have Swarm Tactics.

Question: Can Wedge give Luke a Pilot Skill of 9, and then Luke give Rookie Pilot a skill of 9, or do things happen simultaneously and Luke only provides Rookie Pilot a skill of 8?

Remembering that ST is a Pilot Ability, not an action, the only thing that comes close to addressing this is on pg 16 under Initiative "If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative resolves his abilities first."

So while that says that the team with Initiative will resolve all their ST first, it doesn't say how to resolve them when the same side has simultaneous activation.
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brian
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karrde wrote:
This came up in the FFG forums, but I figured I'd see what the opinions are here.

Scenario: Wedge, Luke, and Rookie Pilot are in tight formation. Both Wedge and Luke have Swarm Tactics.

Question: Can Wedge give Luke a Pilot Skill of 9, and then Luke give Rookie Pilot a skill of 9, or do things happen simultaneously and Luke only provides Rookie Pilot a skill of 8?

Remembering that ST is a Pilot Ability, not an action, the only thing that comes close to addressing this is on pg 16 under Initiative "If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative resolves his abilities first."

So while that says that the team with Initiative will resolve all their ST first, it doesn't say how to resolve them when the same side has simultaneous activation.

I would think that Luke still gives Rookie Pilot a Skill of 8 since that is "his" pilot skill. The card itself states give it to 1 other ship, so transferring Wedge's skill through Luke is doing it more than once.

Final result should be Wedge and Luke at 9, Rookie Pilot at 8.
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Todd Warnken
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I agree with Brian.
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Richard van der Haak
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ColtsFan76 wrote:

I would think that Luke still gives Rookie Pilot a Skill of 8 since that is "his" pilot skill. The card itself states give it to 1 other ship, so transferring Wedge's skill through Luke is doing it more than once.

Final result should be Wedge and Luke at 9, Rookie Pilot at 8.


Hmm. The card only says what ship you can pick for this ability, nothing about transferring. The chosen ship gets the same pilot skill as your pilot skill.

So assuming Wedge and Luke BOTH have the Swarm Tactics card, and Wedge and Luke are at range 1 and Luke and the Rookie pilot are at range 1:

1 - Wedge uses his Swarm Tactics card to pick Luke.
2 - Luke's skill is treated as if it is the same as Wedge until the end of the combat phase.
3 - Luke uses his Swarm Tactics to pick the rookie pilot.
4 - Rookie pilot's skill is treated as if it is the same as Luke (which is treated as if it is the same as Wedge) until the end of the combat phase.

So they all get pilot skill of 9 until the end of the combat phase.
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Jake Di Toro
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With the actual text being "treat the chosen ship as if its pilot skill were equal to your pilot skill." If they are resolved in succession then I have to side with Richard. It's only if you have to resolve them simultaneously that I would agree with Brian.

And so goes the dilemma. If it's a home game "Resolving Rules Disputes" applies, but if it's a Tournament game... It'd be nasty to build a fleet and strategy around this and then get shot down at the tourney.
 
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Garrett
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Isn't there a clause in the rule book that says if you're in a situation where multiple effects trigger simultaneously, you get to choose the order they are carried out? So does order matter even for simultaneous effects? I'm inclined to say "yes" at this point.
 
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Chris Long
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karrde wrote:
With the actual text being "treat the chosen ship as if its pilot skill were equal to your pilot skill."


If that's how the card is worded, then I would have to say 9-9-8. Luke isn't actually increasing his skill here, you're just treating the card as if he had Wedge's skill level of 9. The Rookie pilot would then get treated as if he had Luke's skill, which is still actually 8.

I think there's a difference between actually increasing skill values and what this card does, which simply "treats" your pilot as if the skill is larger, when it really isn't.
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radynski wrote:
karrde wrote:
With the actual text being "treat the chosen ship as if its pilot skill were equal to your pilot skill."


If that's how the card is worded, then I would have to say 9-9-8. Luke isn't actually increasing his skill here, you're just treating the card as if he had Wedge's skill level of 9. The Rookie pilot would then get treated as if he had Luke's skill, which is still actually 8.

I think there's a difference between actually increasing skill values and what this card does, which simply "treats" your pilot as if the skill is larger, when it really isn't.

What is the difference between the "your pilot skill" on the ST card and any other reference to "pilot skill" in the rules, f.ex. when it comes to movement and firing order?
 
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Richard van der Haak
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radynski wrote:
I think there's a difference between actually increasing skill values and what this card does, which simply "treats" your pilot as if the skill is larger, when it really isn't.


So what is the difference between increasing skill values and "treating" skill values as if they are increased ?
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tom brown
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not sure which side I agree with as although it isnt against the rules somebody has obviously found a loophole to power game a game that isnt really built for it.

my opinion, its a waste of points as luke would be much better off taking marksmanship or something else than swarm tactics so his lousy skill of 8 can be increased to the godly skill of 9.
 
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Richard van der Haak
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Anyway, I think the purpose of Swarm Tactics is letting a lower ranked pilot shoot at the same time as the pilot who has the Swarm Tactics ability.

So Luke could have a rookie pilot as wingman who can then shoot the same targets as Luke before the target can shoot somebody else, if the target has a lower skill than Luke.
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Jake Di Toro
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radynski wrote:

I think there's a difference between actually increasing skill values and what this card does, which simply "treats" your pilot as if the skill is larger, when it really isn't.


So lets look at this from the opposite perspective. If Luke has the Damaged Cockpit critical which is "treat your pilot skill value as "0"", does he still get to provide a skill of "8" to a Rookie Pilot because that's what his card says?
 
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Jake Di Toro
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Budgernaut wrote:
Isn't there a clause in the rule book that says if you're in a situation where multiple effects trigger simultaneously, you get to choose the order they are carried out? So does order matter even for simultaneous effects? I'm inclined to say "yes" at this point.


The rule you're looking for is on pg 10 under Combat Phase, "If a single player owns multiple ships with the same pilot skill value, he may resolve their attacks in the order of his choosing."

That's the closest reference I can find to this other than the initiative bit I mentioned in the first post. If you extrapolate that rule out to activating abilities...
 
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Chris Long
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rhaak wrote:
radynski wrote:
I think there's a difference between actually increasing skill values and what this card does, which simply "treats" your pilot as if the skill is larger, when it really isn't.


So what is the difference between increasing skill values and "treating" skill values as if they are increased ?


I just illustrated it in my last post.

karrde wrote:
So lets look at this from the opposite perspective. If Luke has the Damaged Cockpit critical which is "treat your pilot skill value as "0"", does he still get to provide a skill of "8" to a Rookie Pilot because that's what his card says?


Well that's an excellent point. I guess IF there is a difference between increasing/decreasing skill and "treating" skill values as X, then I would have to say yes. He would still be able to give his 8 skill to someone else. But I have a much harder time arguing that point.

I was just trying to illustrate the difference in language that may indicate a way forward through this issue. Clearly there needs to be an FAQ entry on this topic.
 
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brian
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I will ask that it get included in the FAQ.

I just don't believe it was meant to chain like this because then you could give all of your Pilots with the Skill Icon this upgrade and just keep all your X-Wings in tight formation and always attack first (with the exception if Vader is out). That is just way too powerful.
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Jake Di Toro
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
I will ask that it get included in the FAQ.

I just don't believe it was meant to chain like this because then you could give all of your Pilots with the Skill Icon this upgrade and just keep all your X-Wings in tight formation and always attack first (with the exception if Vader is out). That is just way too powerful.


But I think it's also difficult to maintain. If I'm facing this scenario I'd just fly straight into the formation and break it up.

You're also limited to exactly this formation right now to get the "most benefit" out of the scenario as Luke and Wedge are the only two Rebel pilots with the "Elite Talent" upgrade. Realistically you're probably better off breaking Wedge and Luke into two elements each with their own Rookie Pilot/Gold Squadron Pilot to boost to their respective skills anyway.

The Empire has a bit better side of it going Darth->Howl->Mauler->Maarek->Academy Pilot.

Ultimately for me the question is not "is this a valid strategy?" it's "what is the timing for abilities that activate 'at the beginning/end of X phase'?". You can't, or shouldn't, judge that by how powerful this particular combo is but by how it's intended to work in the system. Unfortunately there isn't a definitive answer in the rules.
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brian
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karrde wrote:
Ultimately for me the question is not "is this a valid strategy?" it's "what is the timing for abilities that activate 'at the beginning/end of X phase'?". You can't, or shouldn't, judge that by how powerful this particular combo is but by how it's intended to work in the system. Unfortunately there isn't a definitive answer in the rules.

...which is why I am asking that it be addressed in the FAQ. FFG will have to look at it and see what other impacts there may be on whatever the ruling might be.
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Richard van der Haak
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It is not a valid strategy at the moment for the rebels. You can't build a squadron with Wedge and Luke + 2 x Swarm Strategy and two rookie pilots. Total cost is 103.

After edit: Agh.. ignore this post. I had something else in mind...

I wanted to use two pairs of X-Wings, 1 elite pilot and 1 rookie. But total cost is 103 so no go.
 
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Budgernaut wrote:
Isn't there a clause in the rule book that says if you're in a situation where multiple effects trigger simultaneously, you get to choose the order they are carried out? So does order matter even for simultaneous effects? I'm inclined to say "yes" at this point.


I looked it up and I was getting confused with modifying attack and defense dice. That's the part of the rules where you can choose the order of applying the modifiers. It doesn't mention the timing for other effects, as far as I'm aware.
 
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Jake Di Toro
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rhaak wrote:

I wanted to use two pairs of X-Wings, 1 elite pilot and 1 rookie. But total cost is 103 so no go.


You could swap in a Gold Squad Pilot and be exactly at 100 points.
 
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Ethan McKinney
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karrde wrote:
Scenario: Wedge, Luke, and Rookie Pilot are in tight formation. Both Wedge and Luke have Swarm Tactics.

Well, bleep. Your GeekList just got nuked ...
 
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Nick M
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well...I would assume if it says simultaneously then no it would not stack as it all happens at once. Hopefully FFG will clear it up in the FAQ.
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Jake Di Toro
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Someone of the FFG forums got an answer:

Quote:
You can indeed chain the effect of multiple Swarm Tactics (ST). This is because you resolve your abilities sharing the same timing in any order you choose. Thus, Wedge can use his ST on Luke, then Luke can use his ST on Biggs. As a result, all three ships have a pilot skill of 9 until the end of the Combat phase.

Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen
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Wow, that is a real top drawer response. If all future rules clarifications are handled as such, we are in excellent hands.
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DoctorMike Reddy
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Just for the record Damaged Tactics does not now affect ST as it is now optional in the FAQ:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support...
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