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Zombicide» Forums » Rules

Subject: Ranged weapons rule...not too sure about it. rss

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Cpt. America
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I really don't understand why the rules for ranged combat would have you FIRTS deal wounds to a fellow survivor instead of it being last?....when you shoot at a group of zombiez that are about to dine on your buddy, you are aiming at them, not your friend! If the wounds would be dealt to survivors on the last priority (4) then i would understand because it is like you kept shooting and shooting without realizing all zombies were dead and you mistakenly hit your buddy in the end!...that makes sense to me.....does anyone else have a problem with this rule? or is it just me? or am i not understanding well what the point of it is (considering this is a coop game)? now dont get me wrong, this is a very very cool game, i just have a problem with this rule....thanks everyone!
 
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Thomas King
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It's been hotly debated here. Here's the big several-page debate thread:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/828959/now-with-more-rul...


Short version is:
- Some people don't like the rule.
- Some people have no problem with it.
- Some people don't think it's thematic.
- Some people think it's perfectly thematic.
- Most agree that mechanically, it works fine and forces players to use strategy and tactics rather than just, "shoot da zombies!"
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Joe Reil
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Well with games like this you can run into situations with rules that are in place for thematic reasons and rules that are in place for balance or playability issues. The best ones are the ones that support and enhance the theme will maintaining balance and playability, but it's not always easy to meet that standard.

Thematically: I do not care for this at all. I would be fine with something that would indicate a chance of hitting another survivor, so there was some risk involved, but I don't like the guarantee. Extreme cases where a horde of zombies is in a space with a single survivor just highlight this more.

Playability/Balance: I've only played once so far, so I can't speak with authority on this issue, but I think I can see why this rule is in place - some of the ranged weapon combinations are pretty powerful and adding that restriction can introduce some difficulty in using these weapons.

I'm not really experienced the game yet to say whether I'd want to change it or not and exactly what house rule I would use if I do want to change it, but it is worth thinking about if you don't like the way this works thematically (and really, this type of game is all about theme, so these issues are important, IMO).
 
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Lunar Sol
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When I read it, I hated it. Loathed it even, but I was going to try RAW first. When I played it, I greatly appreciated it and found it greatly enhances the decisions required both in combat and while building your characters when searching.

There are times when its odd, but most scenarios, it actually feels right. I think the thing in game is eventually you get used to the idea that you don't really aim weapons. Everything always feels spray and pray since most of the time, you just keep rolling dice until everything is as dead as you can make it. This sense of a lack of control when shooting optimally makes hitting other players feel right to me somehow.
 
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Orlando Neto
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Rio das Ostras
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Just imagine all survivors are retarded teenagers that only play video games and has no other skills. Or they are normal scared as hell people that will fire at will with a simple glimpse of zombies.
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CJ Kucera
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LunarSol wrote:
There are times when its odd, but most scenarios, it actually feels right. I think the thing in game is eventually you get used to the idea that you don't really aim weapons. Everything always feels spray and pray since most of the time, you just keep rolling dice until everything is as dead as you can make it. This sense of a lack of control when shooting optimally makes hitting other players feel right to me somehow.

Yeah, exactly - remember that the game turns are happening really fast, and any zombies in a zone you're shooting into are going to be trying to mob any player characters in there. If it continues to bother you, just pretend that your teammate is trying to stay as close as possible to her friends, thus keeping zombies off her back. You'd have to be literally shooting right past your teammate anyway!

The one situation where I've felt the need to house-rule against it is when you're firing from inside a car at zero-range and all other survivors are in the same car as you. I just can't get behind the rule in that case, but our group decided that assigning a "-1 to die rolls" while firing inside a car is a good compromise.
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John Ling

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Howabout this house rule on ranged combat:

If your shot misses, you hit a survivor instead. Reroll the "miss dice" and if any of these score a hit, they hit the survivor.

This way, you get the change to hit the survivor (because you're firing wildly) AND the chance to miss all together.

This allows for more meaningful combat. You should not be able to always hit a friend especially if you're in the same zone as them (like with the pistol)
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Jaru Rainn
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Just think about Murphy's law to the next level!
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Adam Starks
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Gameplay wise, the rule is important. Besides balancing ranged vs melee weapons, it also makes the Sniper skill and the Scoped Rifle really valuable. Thematically, I do agree that it's broken.

A few people are houseruling it to where ranged attacks only hit other survivors on a miss instead of a hit, and some even have a houserule where survivors are only hit if the roll is a 1, but those rules unbalance the game, as they make firearms far, far less dangerous.

I have my own houserule idea that I won't get a chance to try out for a while, but maybe it can work for you?

"Allow survivors to spend 1 move action going prone or standing up (just put them on their sides). While prone, friendly fire is instead resolved to where misses and extra successes hit the survivor. So a shotgun or uzi fired into a zone with 1 walker and 1 survivor will always kill the survivor (due to misses or excess hits), but a pistol has a 50/50 chance of killing the zombie vs wounding the survivor."

It's only useful if your buddy has the forethought to go prone (and didn't draw a zombie card using his search as his last action), and you need to be able to roll only as many dice as there are zombies (so no dual uzis if there's only 4 zombies with your friend), and at most one of the dice you roll can be failures (or 0, if you're using a shotgun or sawed-off). And if you do succeed, he has to spend another move action to get back up, which leaves him a bit more vulnerable.

But it preserves the theme, since it's now technically possible (if really, really hard) to shoot zombies off your buddy who's scrambling across the floor, and I think (but am not sure) that it preserves the balance.
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CJ Kucera
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AdamStarks wrote:
Allow survivors to spend 1 move action going prone or standing up

Then again, going prone in a room that's still full of zombies seems like a great way to have zombies completely pile up on you. :) Perhaps you should also add a house rule that prone survivors must be targeted first by zombies during their phase, and receive two wounds instead of one.
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Adam Starks
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The double wounding is probably overkill, and survivors decide how to allocate wounds anyways (Ned rushing over to wrestle the runner that's pouncing on Nick).

It's kind of moot though, because chances are if you've gone prone, and your friend wasn't able to pick off all the zombies, you're dead anyways when their turn comes around.
 
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Ken K
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The rule is fine as is but when I tried this with my family they reacted... uh badly.

We used the variant that every "1" (zombie head) with a ranged weapon caused a wound. With multi-dice weapons like smgs friendly hits become quite likely.

This seemed to satisfy the family and preserved some of the danger in shooting at your friends.
 
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Bryan Sharkey
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I'm definitely not a fan of this rule from just reading the rules. I'll probably play with the house rule that if you miss a zombie, you hit the survivor. Definitely very risky to shoot into the same square, but seems more fair than always injuring the survivor.
 
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CJ Kucera
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Sharkey1337 wrote:
I'm definitely not a fan of this rule from just reading the rules.

I'd encourage you to not dismiss it without actually playing the game with it. Certainly ignore or change it if you really want - it is after all your game and your own enjoyment. But the hitting-a-survivor first rule for ranged weapons really is there for a purpose, and affects how the game flows and what your strategies might be. Ensuring that you've got a decent melee weapon on hand (and the fear that accompanies NOT having that melee weapon) isn't a trivial part of the game, and altering the rules means that you're playing a game that's fundamentally a few steps removed from the "true" Zombicide experience. There's nothing wrong with doing so, of course, but you might be surprised at how well it works out.
 
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Bryan Sharkey
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I'll definitely give it a shot, see what my group thinks of it, and then go from there. Who knows, maybe we might like it after seeing it in practice.laugh
 
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Neomaxim Noefaith
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Professor Plum wrote:
The rule is fine as is but when I tried this with my family they reacted... uh badly.

We used the variant that every "1" (zombie head) with a ranged weapon caused a wound. With multi-dice weapons like smgs friendly hits become quite likely.

This seemed to satisfy the family and preserved some of the danger in shooting at your friends.


After an amazing twenty plays in my home, in the last week, we settled on this, as well as the critical misses effecting any survivors in zones between the shooter and the target.

It has proven the most balanced, and still true to the game's spirit/theme.
 
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Ed Sagritalo
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I think the rule keeps the balance between ranged vs melee weapons. During play, it was easy enough to start at a distance, get off a couple shots and then move away. With melee, we had to plan it a bit better as we usually had to move in to engage, take a couple swings and then move away. Runners made the whole process that much more difficult.

From a thematic standpoint, I was just visualizing zombies mobbing a victim making someone shooting into the masses having just as easy a time to hit his friend as a zombie. Now why should he always hit his friend over the zombies, well hmmmm.

Makes me want to add a laser sight for pistols and SMGs whistle

As a note, this was combined with zombie spawns that I think worked more in our favor and kept the mobs dispersed and easier to deal with in small chunks (literally).
 
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Lunar Sol
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One thing that occurs to me. There's a few things when explaining the rules that help.

1. Always refer to targeting as "targeting a space". Never let players get it in their head that they're shooting at specific zombies.

2. When explain the rule, I usually say "you can't shoot at a space with other players without hitting them".

I had a lot of issues with the rule when I read it in the book, but it feels right in my head on the table. I think the way you burst fire helps, and as soon as you stop aiming at "figures" and start shooting into zones, it feels right.
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Tom Shydler
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Just to support what others have said....I thought the 'Survivors suffer first' was a strange and non-thematic choice. Then I played the game a couple times and realized it is essential. Without it there are some gamey strategies that the Survivors could use that damage the theme even more. It also goes a long way to creating the "Walking Dead" atmosphere that is such a magic element of the game. At least play a couple games with the rule before changing it....
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Jared Parkinson
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I really like that description that you're targeting a zone. And really it makes sense thematically as well when you think about it. If you shoot into a zone then you going to damage any survivors because they get hurt no mater where they are hit. However with zombies you have to shoot them right in that squishy spot between the eyes or else they won't skip a beat and keep coming at you.
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Raven Loft
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But doesn't the idea you MUST hit survivors first then zombies feels odd regardless of how you guys try to make it sound better?

Alright I don't mind shooting in one zone means you will kill your friends but why kill them FIRST then zombies?! is killing them first necessary? Doesn't that force us to not use ranged when a melee is in that zone (unless we want to wound/kill them)?

I think shooting should be random. You shoot at a zone you hit random figures in that zone regardless of the order.

My solution is this:
You add a die of a different color to your roll, if that special die is 5 or 6 you follow the normal rules (shooting survivors first). If it's a 4 or 3 then you shoot the walkers first then survivors then the rest of the zombies. When you roll 2 or 1 you go through the regular zombie order (walker first..etc) without shooting a survivor.

In this way it makes more sense. You want to shoot? go a head but 2 out of 6 chance you're going to shoot your friend first but not all the time.

 
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Jake Rose
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Raven13 wrote:
Alright I don't mind shooting in one zone means you will kill your friends but why kill them FIRST then zombies?! is killing them first necessary? Doesn't that force us to not use ranged when a melee is in that zone (unless we want to wound/kill them)?



Yes, you are forced to either cap your buddy in co-op play or wade in and engage in melee. Better yet, plan so that you don't have to make the choice.
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Jeff Dunford
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jakecarol wrote:
Raven13 wrote:
Alright I don't mind shooting in one zone means you will kill your friends but why kill them FIRST then zombies?! is killing them first necessary? Doesn't that force us to not use ranged when a melee is in that zone (unless we want to wound/kill them)?



Yes, you are forced to either cap your buddy in co-op play or wade in and engage in melee. Better yet, plan so that you don't have to make the choice.


The rule could have been "You cannot fire a ranged weapon into a zone containing one or more Survivors" but then we'd be saying "Why not? That's so unthematic." Instead they said, "Go ahead and shoot into a zone with a Survivor... but if you do, you'll hit your buddy before you'll hit any zombies." It might not seem any more thematic, but the rule they chose allows for more meaningful decisions and possible tactics (e.g. there might be a situation where the group needs to sacrifice someone to hold back the zombie horde while another sprays the zone with dual SMGs or a Molotov).
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J Ry
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Weve played it as shoot all you want, misses auto hit survivors in the same zone as the targeted zombies.
Weve found we still typically dont shoot into the crowd.

Also, any 1s rolled hit survivors between your space and the zombies space.

Lastly, you can use a ranged weapon with range 0 (pistol, uzi, etc) to shoot at zombies in your zone without worries of hitting other survivors in that zone.
This was argued. My response was to show them the cover art on the box....
Tell me they are not in the same zone??
 
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CJ Kucera
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ropya wrote:
Lastly, you can use a ranged weapon with range 0 (pistol, uzi, etc) to shoot at zombies in your zone without worries of hitting other survivors in that zone.

So you're not concerned that a rampaging zombie might plow into your arm as you're firing that uzi, completely screwing up your aim and sending your bullets into your teammates? :)
 
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