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Subject: The under empire rss

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rhinocer rhinocer
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States that player treats all regions with skaven tokens as adjecent so my question is can for example clan rat from region with no skaven tokens move to any region with skaven token?
 
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brian
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rhinocer wrote:
States that player treats all regions with skaven tokens as adjecent so my question is can for example clan rat from region with no skaven tokens move to any region with skaven token?

Only if they are physically adjacent. The Skaven tokens are just making other regions with skaven tokens adjacent. Think of it as an underground network and that is how they are traveling.
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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The card says "You treat all regions with Skaven tokens as adjacent regions." To me, that says that if it's got a Skaven token, then you treat it as an adjacent region, and can use it any time the rules specify an adjacent region, such as for placing figures. If it required that the originating region have a Skaven token, then it should read something like "You treat all regions with Skaven tokens as adjacent to each other." Unfortunately, the FAQ fails to clarify the intent of the card, so this is still open to interpretation.
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Joseph Cochran
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Santiago wrote:
The card says "You treat all regions with Skaven tokens as adjacent regions." To me, that says that if it's got a Skaven token, then you treat it as an adjacent region, and can use it any time the rules specify an adjacent region, such as for placing figures. If it required that the originating region have a Skaven token, then it should read something like "You treat all regions with Skaven tokens as adjacent to each other." Unfortunately, the FAQ fails to clarify the intent of the card, so this is still open to interpretation.


My read has always been "adjacent to each other." I think that if they meant what you are saying, it would have said "You treat all regions with Skaven tokens as regions adjacent to you."

For example, The Empire and Bretonnia are adjacent regions no matter where your figures on the board are. Adjacency is geographic, not personal.
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brian
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Santiago wrote:
The card says "You treat all regions with Skaven tokens as adjacent regions." To me, that says that if it's got a Skaven token, then you treat it as an adjacent region, and can use it any time the rules specify an adjacent region, such as for placing figures. If it required that the originating region have a Skaven token, then it should read something like "You treat all regions with Skaven tokens as adjacent to each other." Unfortunately, the FAQ fails to clarify the intent of the card, so this is still open to interpretation.

The problem with this interpretation is with only 9 regions, you place 3 tokens and the entire map is adjacent (Even with only 2, 8 of the regions could be adjacent). That makes it way too powerful.

Whereas if the regions with skaven tokens are adjacent only to themselves (besides those psychically touching), adjacency is limited to just those 3 regions and you have to work for the rest.

I think the text is relatively clear. It could be more clear by dropping the word "region" at the end: "You treat all regions with Skaven tokens as adjacent." If a region has a skaven token, then it is adjacent to other regions with Skaven tokens. Otherwise, what is it adjacent to? Everything? A Skaven token in Norsca makes it adjacent to all other regions? That seems like quite a jump based on the text. Maybe that is what you were trying to say - which makes it even more powerful then what I thought you were saying.

I don't like using flavor text to answer rule questions, but the title lends some credence to our interpretation. You have an underground empire. The rat tokens represent cave entrances. Why would something without this entrance (a region with no Skaven token) suddenly be connected to other regions. It is an underground network connecting the nest. But you need a means of egress.

At least this was our interpretation during playtesting.
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Trevin Beattie
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This has been asked before in the Unofficial FAQ of Chaos in the Old World: The Horned Rat Expansion (item #21.) From what I can tell, there hasn't been an official answer yet; but I'm inclined to agree with Bryan and Joseph on this one, for the reasons Brian gave.
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
If a region has a skaven token, then it is adjacent to other regions with Skaven tokens. Otherwise, what is it adjacent to? Everything? A Skaven token in Norsca makes it adjacent to all other regions? That seems like quite a jump based on the text. Maybe that is what you were trying to say - which makes it even more powerful then what I thought you were saying.


By a literal reading, yes. It says that you can substitute the property has-a-Skaven-token for the property is-adjacent. That would effectively make adjacency non-symmetric, in that regions with Skaven would be adjacent to everything, but everything is not necessarily adjacent to them, letting you expand to any region with Skaven regardless of geographic adjacency, but not use the existence of one of your figures in a region with Skaven to go anywhere on the board. The discussion of adjacency in the rules as "adjacent to a region" does get a bit muddled under this reading, so I think they probably meant that regions with Skaven are only adjacent to other regions with Skaven, but it's not what they wrote. I've gotten spoiled by Magic: the Gathering and its crisply unambiguous rules that should be executed literally without interpretation.
 
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rhinocer rhinocer
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my interpretation is that upgrade allows you to move to regions with skaven tokens no mater current region contains token or not because when region is ruined all tokens old world tokens are removed so is the skaven token. and upgrade card allows you to move to region with skaven, but once you are in a region with skaven token wich is not geograficaly adjecent to other i.e. you are in bretonia with skaven you are not allowed to go to kislev without skaven.
 
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russell gowlett
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Brian and Joseph have got to be right, the interpretation doesn't make much sense the other way
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brian
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Santiago wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
If a region has a skaven token, then it is adjacent to other regions with Skaven tokens. Otherwise, what is it adjacent to? Everything? A Skaven token in Norsca makes it adjacent to all other regions? That seems like quite a jump based on the text. Maybe that is what you were trying to say - which makes it even more powerful then what I thought you were saying.


By a literal reading, yes.

See, I think you can literally read it a different way. Unfortunately, I think our "midwesternisms" get in the way and it isn't the most precise to "outsiders." Also unfortunately, when you have midwesterners writing it and midwesterners proofing it, we don't see any thing wrong with it or that it could be more clear at the time. This is how I break up the sentence:

Quote:
You treat all regions with Skaven tokens as adjacent regions.


I don't see that as "has-a-Skaven-token" substitutes for the term "is-adjacent" What I see is:

All your [regions with Skaven tokens] are adjacent What regions are adjacent? All your regions with Skaven tokens.

If you substituted the bracket for [regions with common borders], no one would question you have to share a common border to be adjacent. You wouldn't assume that just because a single region has a common border with any 4 other regions that it is now adjacent to ALL other regions. In other words, having a common border doesn't trigger adjacency everywhere, it just triggers adjacency where that common border is - so it becomes a relationship between two specific regions.

Likewise, the phrase is not saying the a region that has a Skaven token now magically becomes adjacent to all other regions. But it means that between two regions that have Skaven tokens, those two regions are now adjacent as if they were literally sharing a common border.

So you still look at the relationship between any two regions. Do they share a common border? Yes, they are adjacent. If No, then do they both have a Skaven token? Yes, then they are adjacent. If No, then they are not adjacent, even if only one of them has a Skaven token.

For me to get to your interpretation, it would have to be written as: "You treat all regions with Skaven tokens as adjacent to all other regions." Since text has to be added this way, I don't see how yours is the only literal reading.

Like I said, not arguing it couldn't have been more clearer. But I think this is a valid interpretation under literal reading just as much as what you are advocating. Given other angles, it is also the only logical answer as well.
 
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David F
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Doesn't matter if you should interpret it this way or that way; the fact that there is more than 1 literal valid interpretation, and they oppose each other, shows the wording wasn't clear enough on this card.

But agree that thematically, mechanically, shows it should be the skaven-to-skaven interpretation. If you do it the other way, then you can go from non-skaven to skaven, but not from skaven to non-skaven. That's weird.
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rhinocer rhinocer
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selwyth wrote:
Doesn't matter if you should interpret it this way or that way; the fact that there is more than 1 literal valid interpretation, and they oppose each other, shows the wording wasn't clear enough on this card.

But agree that thematically, mechanically, shows it should be the skaven-to-skaven interpretation. If you do it the other way, then you can go from non-skaven to skaven, but not from skaven to non-skaven. That's weird.


but then again if rat player plays on victory points he may skitterleap all the map by dominating regions with skaven and without
 
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