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Subject: Perception is not everything, but it is quite a lot. Lance Armstrong. rss

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The bicycling politicians have been after this guy for over a decade. He is reviled in the snooty world of European sanctioning organizations and their minions in America because he wins and wins and wins.

So he told them to go fuck themselves. The guy has passed over 500 blood and urine tests. 500!!!! Many of them surprise tests that all athletes are subject to in many sports. 500+ times and he passed.

Yet they pursue him and pursue him. Now he said "fuck you and fuck your arbitration".

About time. There is no way to win when it's been preordained you will lose. I like Lance. The USADA and WADA have conducted a witch hunt and selected Armstrong as their witch. They should be disbanded, all public funding withdrawn and the sport should dismiss all upper level people and hire new ones to sanction and oversee competition. The only clear winner here is Armstrong. Bicycling loses.
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Daniel Edwards
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancear...

Is there a rundown anywhere as to what actual evidence is being relied on?

I'm more than a little biased because I think Lance Armstrong is fucking awesome but struggling to see how re-testing samples from 1999 can provide much that is credible.

Edit: And accusations from the French! About the Tour de France! A few weeks ago they were accussing the British cycling team of having special wheels.
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Apparently they had 10 former teammates testifying against him.
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I've read so much about this over the years that I'm weary. So imagine what it's like for someone like Armstrong. I honestly don't know what new evidence they could possibly have because he has successfully proven himself time and time again.

Seems to me that just allowing the arbitration "trial" to go forward would not make anything better for him because the intent here is clearly to permanently taint him. It's similar to being accused of a crime like sexual assault or rape and then being cleared of it. The taint remains and the fact that one might be found not guilty doesn't take away the resentment of those who are envious.

At the same time many pro sports allow competitors to use non-natural agents to help them compete, or to compete while injured. Cortisone shots are a big one in sports like American football and soccer to reduce the effects of localized tendon injuries or muscle strains. Players get the shots, along with strong pain killers in order to play and everybody seems just fine with that sort of doping. Do pro cyclists do the same thing? And if so, how is that not doping?
 
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jmilum wrote:
Apparently they had 10 former teammates testifying against him.


I don't know the total gist of the evidence, but what kind of dick do you have to be that 10 of your previous teammates testify against you? I'm kind of thinking that Lance wasn't well liked by his peers.
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DWTripp wrote:
He is reviled in the snooty world of European sanctioning organizations

The International Cycling Union has been telling the USADA to knock it the fuck off and that it has no jurisdiction to strip Tour de France titles.
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Shhhh, you are messing with his flawed perception of reality.
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damiangerous wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
He is reviled in the snooty world of European sanctioning organizations

The International Cycling Union has been telling the USADA to knock it the fuck off and that it has no jurisdiction to strip Tour de France titles.


That may be true, but the WADA seems to be just as intent on Armstrong as their American counterpart. I know the American anti-doping group is taxpayer funded but have no idea if that's true in Europe.

I have read that Armstrong is difficult. So are a lot of top athletes. Not everybody is as loving and giving a personality as Tim Tebow.
 
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I'm wondering why they don't just fucking admit that everybody in pro sports dopes/uses PEDs and agree that it's OK to do it as long as you are open about it.
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I don't get why opinions on whether Lance Armstrong and Roger Clemens used performance enhancing drugs seem to break along party lines, but they sure seem to.
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MWChapel wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Apparently they had 10 former teammates testifying against him.


I don't know the total gist of the evidence, but what kind of dick do you have to be that 10 of your previous teammates testify against you? I'm kind of thinking that Lance wasn't well liked by his peers.


Really all you have to do is be one of the best ever, people who outshine their competition are almost always "dicks".

Lance Armstrong - considered an asshole
Michael Jordan - considered an asshole
Ty Cobb - considered one of the biggest assholes ever
Tiger Woods - considered an asshole
Roger Clemens - considered an asshole

When you are so much better than everyone else around you, not only does everyone want a piece of you, but you expect the same level of excellence from those around you as well (in team sports). So you develop a thick skin from everyone wanting a piece of you (which makes you look like an asshole) and when you are demanding of your teammates you look like an asshole.

One other thing to mention is that while team sport orientated people above were all extremely demanding of their teammates, their piers will also tell you that they never saw people with a higher level of work ethic as well.
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bjlillo wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Apparently they had 10 former teammates testifying against him.


That wasn't enough to convince you with John Kerry.

I don't believe I've ever expressed an opinion about John Kerry on here? And I wasn't expressing an opinion on the guilt or innocence of Armstrong either. I was simply answering a question about what other evidence was presented against him.
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Ogsponge wrote:
Ty Cobb - considered one of the biggest assholes ever



I'm a huge Ty Cobb fan, but even *I* have to admit that beating up a cripple pretty much solidifies your standing on the "asshole" ranking.
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DWTripp wrote:
The guy has passed over 500 blood and urine tests. 500!!!! Many of them surprise tests that all athletes are subject to in many sports. 500+ times and he passed.


Testing athletes seems like a waste of time to me. Why test at all when you can find 10 people that don't like you and testify against you?

jmilum wrote:
Apparently they had 10 former teammates testifying against him.


Oh look, they did!

Lets just throw Lance in the lake and if he floats, he's a witch!
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DWTripp wrote:
damiangerous wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
He is reviled in the snooty world of European sanctioning organizations

The International Cycling Union has been telling the USADA to knock it the fuck off and that it has no jurisdiction to strip Tour de France titles.



That may be true, but the WADA seems to be just as intent on Armstrong as their American counterpart. I know the American anti-doping group is taxpayer funded but have no idea if that's true in Europe.

I have read that Armstrong is difficult. So are a lot of top athletes. Not everybody is as loving and giving a personality as Tim Tebow.



Fuck Lance Armstrong. From what I read the USADA believed their case was strong enough to stand up in court. They'd love for him to sue. He won't, because he doesn't want the evidence to become public.
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Fuck Lance Armstrong. From what I read the USADA believed their case was strong enough to stand up in court. They'd love for him to sue. He won't, because he doesn't want the evidence to become public.

The USADA is just going to release their evidence anyway, and now they don't have to follow the rules of evidence of a court. I don't see that as being his motive.
 
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myopia wrote:

I'm more than a little biased because I think Lance Armstrong is fucking awesome but struggling to see how re-testing samples from 1999 can provide much that is credible.



Well, they are always changing what they test for and new methods of doping come up (and there are still PEDs that they haven't developed a good test for). So, they keep old samples around so that if/when they do develop a new test, they can go back and see if someone was doping.

Consider also that if you look at the top four riders in each of Armstrong's winning years, all but one have been found doping. Definitely not enough to prove doping, but there's certainly a large amount of circumstantial evidence piling up.
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djgutierrez77 wrote:


Fuck Lance Armstrong. From what I read the USADA believed their case was strong enough to stand up in court. They'd love for him to sue. He won't, because he doesn't want the evidence to become public.


Fuck yeah! And while we're at it, seeing as how there's tons of circumstantial evidence, let's drag Obama into court and make that fucker prove he was born in the USA!!! Cause there's tons of circumstantial evidence that he wasn't. Hell, even if he could prove that he's legit, there's a damning amount of evidence that he won't release his transcripts because he got into college "free" by claiming he was a foreign student!

Yeah, circumstantial evidence for the win!
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abrannan wrote:
Consider also that if you look at the top four riders in each of Armstrong's winning years, all but one have been found doping. Definitely not enough to prove doping, but there's certainly a large amount of circumstantial evidence piling up.


At most, that's basis for suspicion -- i.e. it may be grounds to suspect that no human being can perform at that level without PEDs. It's not evidence, however, circumstantial or otherwise.
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Erik17 wrote:
I don't get why opinions on whether Lance Armstrong and Roger Clemens used performance enhancing drugs seem to break along party lines, but they sure seem to.


I dunno man. I agree with Tripp on this one, and I'm not sure anybody else on this planet is on his party line.
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tscook wrote:
I thought cyclists deserved your dogs, not your admiration?


Way inside.

But my dirty secret is I enjoy professional cycling.
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DWTripp wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:


Fuck Lance Armstrong. From what I read the USADA believed their case was strong enough to stand up in court. They'd love for him to sue. He won't, because he doesn't want the evidence to become public.


Fuck yeah! And while we're at it, seeing as how there's tons of circumstantial evidence, let's drag Obama into court and make that fucker prove he was born in the USA!!! Cause there's tons of circumstantial evidence that he wasn't. Hell, even if he could prove that he's legit, there's a damning amount of evidence that he won't release his transcripts because he got into college "free" by claiming he was a foreign student!

Yeah, circumstantial evidence for the win!


Um, Tripp. I know it's kind of common for people to throw around the phrase "circumstantial evidence" as if it instantly disqualifies an item of evidence from any consideration, but that's just not how it works. Circumstantial evidence is as valuable and useful as direct evidence; the only difference is that direct evidence doesn't require the fact-finder to make any inferences.

If you are found standing over the corpse of a liberal, with a bloody tire iron in your hand, most of the evidence that will come out at your trial will be circumstantial. There may be direct evidence that the blood belonged to the liberal. There will certainly be direct evidence of the blood on you and on the tire iron, and the dead body before you. But without an eyewitness to definitively say that they saw you bludgeon the victim, we would have to infer from the circumstantial evidence of your presence, the tire iron, etc., that you had done him a mischief.

Circumstantial evidence can be strong or weak, but the fact that it is "circumstantial" doesn't mean it's worthless.
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I have no strong opinion.

Perhaps he was using something and they finally figured out how to find it.

Given all the drug tests and the propensity for humans to lie, I would default in his favor without hard evidence.

I am somewhat swayed by the evidence that most of his competitors were found to be doping...but one wasn't. If so-then that competitor deserves the medals if he was following the rules and the rest were not.
 
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Ogsponge wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Apparently they had 10 former teammates testifying against him.


I don't know the total gist of the evidence, but what kind of dick do you have to be that 10 of your previous teammates testify against you? I'm kind of thinking that Lance wasn't well liked by his peers.


Really all you have to do is be one of the best ever, people who outshine their competition are almost always "dicks".

Lance Armstrong - considered an asshole
Michael Jordan - considered an asshole
Ty Cobb - considered one of the biggest assholes ever
Tiger Woods - considered an asshole
Roger Clemens - considered an asshole

When you are so much better than everyone else around you, not only does everyone want a piece of you, but you expect the same level of excellence from those around you as well (in team sports). So you develop a thick skin from everyone wanting a piece of you (which makes you look like an asshole) and when you are demanding of your teammates you look like an asshole.

One other thing to mention is that while team sport orientated people above were all extremely demanding of their teammates, their piers will also tell you that they never saw people with a higher level of work ethic as well.


Well, Ty Cobb was a raging racist and pretty much the dirtiest player in the history of the game. He'd be just as big an asshole if he wasn't at the top.

And not every top player has that reputation: I'm not aware of anybody calling Jerry Rice or Pete Sampras an asshole, for instance.
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Golux13 wrote:



If you are found standing over the corpse of a liberal, with a bloody tire iron in your hand, most of the evidence that will come out at your trial will be circumstantial. There may be direct evidence that the blood belonged to the liberal. There will certainly be direct evidence of the blood on you and on the tire iron, and the dead body before you. But without an eyewitness to definitively say that they saw you bludgeon the victim, we would have to infer from the circumstantial evidence of your presence, the tire iron, etc., that you had done him a mischief.


I think the best bet here would be to only be found standing over the corpse of a dead liberal, while in Norway. Given their penalty for direct evidence of mass murder I figure a circumstantial conviction there would net me a penalty week-end at a resort island. I could change the entire texture of RSP if Aldie would just hold the next BGG.Con in Oslo. I'd be back in the USA in 3 weeks and the Hive Mind would crumble.

Quote:
Circumstantial evidence can be strong or weak, but the fact that it is "circumstantial" doesn't mean it's worthless.


Thank you Professor. I know that. And I know that circumstantial "proof" has a variety of thresholds depending on the venue. I just can't see any way out for Armstrong other than the route he took. Give back all the legal support money and move along. Write a book. Start a cycling school. Continue to support charitable research on cancer and wait for the worm to turn. I actually think it will turn. Eventually all this BS about doping and vitamin enhancements will become boring or dissipate due to funding cuts and the sanctioning commission will just publish a list of approved enhancements.

That's right. I'm for athletes enhancing their performance. They're gonna do it anyway, so let's just give them all an option not to do it if they don't mind never winning.
 
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