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Subject: Movement to close combat rss

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Todd Trahan
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I've searched and didn't see this question posted anywhere so hopefully it hasn't already been asked and answered. I understand that movement into close combat is done by moving in a direct line, but is there a rule regarding a specific aiming point on the target base (e.g. move in a direct line toward the center of the target's base)? Obviously this sort of rule would make it difficult for 2 side by side soldiers to both make contact with the same enemy soldier (located directly in front of them) as the first one that moves forward into contact with the center of the target's base would result in him almost completely blocking the path of his colleague (which may be the desired intent?). Thanks in advance!
 
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Greg
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The bases just need to touch to become in combat contact. There isn't an aiming point so to speak, but for your soldier to be able to participate in the fight, they need the firing arc of their base to be in contact anywhere with the opponent's soldier's base. Ideally, you can approach from the side and get your soldier's firing arc touching the enemy soldier's base, but not in the enemy soldier's firing arc. That way, your soldier can fight at the end of the phase but the enemy soldier can't because his firing arc wouldn't be in contact with your soldier's base.

That said, if you moved into combat contact first due to initiative, if your opponent plays a Move action in that phase, he can still turn his soldier to get his firing arc in contact with your soldier's firing arc, that way your opponent's soldier can fight too at the end of the phase. While in combat contact, you can't do anything really, but if you play a move action, while you can't move away, you can turn your soldier to a better facing so he can partake in the fight. Now if you have two soldiers move into combat contact with one enemy soldier, try to do so in a way that forces the enemy to only be able to fight one of your soldiers if possible. In other words, don't move both your soldiers up against the enemy's firing arc.

Another thing to remember also is that while you have to move into combat contact in a straight line, if you have a move action that says move and move again, you can move your soldier the first time into a position to help set him up for his second move straight into combat contact, and hopefully in the flank or rear of the enemy's base.


Edited: to clarify that opponent must legally play Move action to be able to turn his soldier in combat contact to be able to fight.
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Just to be clear, it's not a free turn around for the attacked unit. A Move card must also have been played for them to take that action.
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Greg
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Thanks Walt. I was kind of in a hurry at work to get a lot of info out but forgot to add that part. I'll edit it in to help make it clearer in that post.
 
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Rob Belli
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Saintsfan wrote:
I've searched and didn't see this question posted anywhere so hopefully it hasn't already been asked and answered. I understand that movement into close combat is done by moving in a direct line, but is there a rule regarding a specific aiming point on the target base (e.g. move in a direct line toward the center of the target's base)? Obviously this sort of rule would make it difficult for 2 side by side soldiers to both make contact with the same enemy soldier (located directly in front of them) as the first one that moves forward into contact with the center of the target's base would result in him almost completely blocking the path of his colleague (which may be the desired intent?). Thanks in advance!


You are correct Todd. Moving into close combat rule is that you move directly towards the center of the targets base in a straight line. if attacking with 2 or more soldiers you can actually block another soldiers path by getting "in the way".
 
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Rob Belli
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Hahma wrote:
The bases just need to touch to become in combat contact. There isn't an aiming point so to speak, but for your soldier to be able to participate in the fight, they need the firing arc of their base to be in contact anywhere with the opponent's soldier's base. Ideally, you can approach from the side and get your soldier's firing arc touching the enemy soldier's base, but not in the enemy soldier's firing arc. That way, your soldier can fight at the end of the phase but the enemy soldier can't because his firing arc wouldn't be in contact with your soldier's base.


The aiming point is the center of the targets base.


Hahma wrote:
That said, if you moved into combat contact first due to initiative, if your opponent plays a Move action in that phase, he can still turn his soldier to get his firing arc in contact with your soldier's firing arc, that way your opponent's soldier can fight too at the end of the phase. While in combat contact, you can't do anything really, but if you play a move action, while you can't move away, you can turn your soldier to a better facing so he can partake in the fight. Now if you have two soldiers move into combat contact with one enemy soldier, try to do so in a way that forces the enemy to only be able to fight one of your soldiers if possible. In other words, don't move both your soldiers up against the enemy's firing arc.


Close Combat is about drawing Fight Cards. In order to stop your opponent from drawing Fight Cards is to not have any of your soldier(s) bases touching his firing arc. If they dont you get a "surprise" attack and Draw your cards while he has none to fight back with. HOWEVER, if you have a soldier touching his frontal arc and another soldier in the rear or flank. He still draws Fight cards and may attack EITHER of your soliders since he has Fight cards to play with. Even you have a 4 on 1, with a similar situation he can still attack any of the 4 soldiers in the close combat.

The only time a soldier may draw Fight cards in Close Combat without having to have his frontal arc touching an enemies base is when a Prisoner is being escorted. If the Escorter is being attacked the Prisoner along with his friendly solider draws Fight cards, but the Prisoner is Pinned and draws half his amount rounding down.

Hahma wrote:
Another thing to remember also is that while you have to move into combat contact in a straight line, if you have a move action that says move and move again, you can move your soldier the first time into a position to help set him up for his second move straight into combat contact, and hopefully in the flank or rear of the enemy's base.


Edited: to clarify that opponent must legally play Move action to be able to turn his soldier in combat contact to be able to fight.


Your are correct.
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Greg
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rbelli wrote:
Saintsfan wrote:
I've searched and didn't see this question posted anywhere so hopefully it hasn't already been asked and answered. I understand that movement into close combat is done by moving in a direct line, but is there a rule regarding a specific aiming point on the target base (e.g. move in a direct line toward the center of the target's base)? Obviously this sort of rule would make it difficult for 2 side by side soldiers to both make contact with the same enemy soldier (located directly in front of them) as the first one that moves forward into contact with the center of the target's base would result in him almost completely blocking the path of his colleague (which may be the desired intent?). Thanks in advance!


You are correct Todd. Moving into close combat rule is that you move directly towards the center of the targets base in a straight line. if attacking with 2 or more soldiers you can actually block another soldiers path by getting "in the way".


I was trying to find this in the rulebook Rob but didn't see where it was. I guess I was under the impression that you had to move in a straight line to get into combat contact, as in not zig-zagging to get into contact, but thought that the bases just had to touch, where the moving figure would contact the other soldier's base with his firing arc to be able to draw cards.

Under Combat Contact on page 15, it says, "When soldiers are in base-to-base contact with an enemy Soldier, and at least ONE of them has his Shooting Arc in this contact, they are both said to be Combat Contact and will Fight at the end of that Phase. Only Soldiers whose Shooting Arc is touching an enemy Soldier will draw cards in the Fight"

 
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rbelli wrote:
Hahma wrote:
The bases just need to touch to become in combat contact. There isn't an aiming point so to speak, but for your soldier to be able to participate in the fight, they need the firing arc of their base to be in contact anywhere with the opponent's soldier's base. Ideally, you can approach from the side and get your soldier's firing arc touching the enemy soldier's base, but not in the enemy soldier's firing arc. That way, your soldier can fight at the end of the phase but the enemy soldier can't because his firing arc wouldn't be in contact with your soldier's base.


The aiming point is the center of the targets base.


Hahma wrote:
That said, if you moved into combat contact first due to initiative, if your opponent plays a Move action in that phase, he can still turn his soldier to get his firing arc in contact with your soldier's firing arc, that way your opponent's soldier can fight too at the end of the phase. While in combat contact, you can't do anything really, but if you play a move action, while you can't move away, you can turn your soldier to a better facing so he can partake in the fight. Now if you have two soldiers move into combat contact with one enemy soldier, try to do so in a way that forces the enemy to only be able to fight one of your soldiers if possible. In other words, don't move both your soldiers up against the enemy's firing arc.


Close Combat is about drawing Fight Cards. In order to stop your opponent from drawing Fight Cards is to not have any of your soldier(s) bases touching his firing arc. If they dont you get a "surprise" attack and Draw your cards while he has none to fight back with. HOWEVER, if you have a soldier touching his frontal arc and another soldier in the rear or flank. He still draws Fight cards and may attack EITHER of your soliders since he has Fight cards to play with. Even you have a 4 on 1, with a similar situation he can still attack any of the 4 soldiers in the close combat.

The only time a soldier may draw Fight cards in Close Combat without having to have his frontal arc touching an enemies base is when a Prisoner is being escorted. If the Escorter is being attacked the Prisoner along with his friendly solider draws Fight cards, but the Prisoner is Pinned and draws half his amount rounding down.

Hahma wrote:
Another thing to remember also is that while you have to move into combat contact in a straight line, if you have a move action that says move and move again, you can move your soldier the first time into a position to help set him up for his second move straight into combat contact, and hopefully in the flank or rear of the enemy's base.


Edited: to clarify that opponent must legally play Move action to be able to turn his soldier in combat contact to be able to fight.


Your are correct.




I didn't see where "aiming point" was referenced, particularly for combat contact.

I didn't realize that on a 2 on 1 situation, the player with only 1 soldier could choose which enemy soldier to attack, even if the 1 soldier only had his firing arc touching 1 enemy soldiers. That's good to know for sure, thanks for pointing that out.
 
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Todd Trahan
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Thanks to everyone for the quick responses.

Rob - I thought I remembered you stating it that way during the tournament at the WBC, but I was having a hard time convincing my opponent last weekend, who wasn't around when you clarified the rule.
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Greg
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Saintsfan wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the quick responses.

Rob - I thought I remembered you stating it that way during the tournament at the WBC, but I was having a hard time convincing my opponent last weekend, who wasn't around when you clarified the rule.


Well that sometimes seems to be the problem Todd. People that go to these tournaments can get incite or rulings that others aren't privy to.
 
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Rob Belli
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Hahma wrote:
rbelli wrote:
Saintsfan wrote:
I've searched and didn't see this question posted anywhere so hopefully it hasn't already been asked and answered. I understand that movement into close combat is done by moving in a direct line, but is there a rule regarding a specific aiming point on the target base (e.g. move in a direct line toward the center of the target's base)? Obviously this sort of rule would make it difficult for 2 side by side soldiers to both make contact with the same enemy soldier (located directly in front of them) as the first one that moves forward into contact with the center of the target's base would result in him almost completely blocking the path of his colleague (which may be the desired intent?). Thanks in advance!


You are correct Todd. Moving into close combat rule is that you move directly towards the center of the targets base in a straight line. if attacking with 2 or more soldiers you can actually block another soldiers path by getting "in the way".


I was trying to find this in the rulebook Rob but didn't see where it was. I guess I was under the impression that you had to move in a straight line to get into combat contact, as in not zig-zagging to get into contact, but thought that the bases just had to touch, where the moving figure would contact the other soldier's base with his firing arc to be able to draw cards.

Under Combat Contact on page 15, it says, "When soldiers are in base-to-base contact with an enemy Soldier, and at least ONE of them has his Shooting Arc in this contact, they are both said to be Combat Contact and will Fight at the end of that Phase. Only Soldiers whose Shooting Arc is touching an enemy Soldier will draw cards in the Fight"



I am doing a rewrite of the rules. So im trying to clarify questions now as I can.
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Greg
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Thanks Rob.

 
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rbelli wrote:
Close Combat is about drawing Fight Cards. In order to stop your opponent from drawing Fight Cards is to not have any of your soldier(s) bases touching his firing arc. If they dont you get a "surprise" attack and Draw your cards while he has none to fight back with. HOWEVER, if you have a soldier touching his frontal arc and another soldier in the rear or flank. He still draws Fight cards and may attack EITHER of your soliders since he has Fight cards to play with. Even you have a 4 on 1, with a similar situation he can still attack any of the 4 soldiers in the close combat.
This is exactly the kind of thing that drives me crazy. When was this changed that you could attack someone in your rear when your shooting arc is not touching? There are comments in threads that have supported the exact opposite notion. That moving/turning and facing the shooting arc was the only way to attack. How are you supposed to be able to understand from the language, or even common sense, that you may apply your fight cards to someone NOT in your shooting arc?! CRIKEY! Strongly disagree with the concept that you can be locked in mortal combat with someone right in front of you trying to stab you in the face, but I'm going to attack this guy behind me instead, who I'm not really focused on outside of my shooting arc. Counter intuitive insanity! shake
 
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Not if you're a Ninja ninja
 
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Greg
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Walt Mulder wrote:
Not if you're a Ninja ninja


Or if you are Sgt. Drake Alexander









That said, it does seem counter intuitive to be able to attack a soldier that your soldier isn't facing, just because your soldier is facing one of the two enemy soldiers he's in combat contact with. I'm sure that's why I never thought of being able to do that, even though the way the rules are written it seems like you can based on the line,

"The Player with the Initiative plays one card (and applies its Combat Result) against any enemy Soldier that is contacted by any of the player's Soldiers in this Combat Contact."

Emphasis mine.

So while it looks like you can do that, though based on previous requirements for being able to attack in Combat Contact, I just must of glossed over that as it seems counter to the way you play it with 1 soldier vs. 1 soldier.
 
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If the shooting arc is necessary for drawing fight cards at the beginning it should also be necessary for targeting/fighting an enemy during the fight.

Flanking maneuvers and actual position should matter not just at the commencement of a fight but also throughout the entire conflict unless and until a move changes the facing. That is why someone asks you to watch his six. It's so he doesn't get ambushed from behind at huge disadvantage.

One You shouldn't be allowed to attack an enemy behind you only when there is also an enemy attacking you in the front of your shooting arc when because you wouldn't otherwise be able to attack the person behind you at all when there isn't an enemy in your front shooting arc. This inconsistency is ridiculous.

You should never be able to attack someone behind you touching your dog tag just because and only because there is someone already in front of you touching your shooting arc that you should actually be fighting with. He's trying to kill you and you're ignoring him! Ever hear of 'tunnel vision'? It's completely nonsensical to ignore that enemy and engage behind you instead.
shake

[Edit: Didn't Jeff say somewhere once that Equipment and Tactics was going to allow for reactions? I can't find it, but I could see allowing a soldier to react and engage someone outside his shooting arc to reflect a special level of tactical training, but not otherwise. The way it is now is just silly.]
 
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kduke wrote:
I'm thinking "combat contact" requires touching with the frontal arc. The rule wording given is hard to follow, but if you figure"the player's soldiers" are friendlies, then isn't it saying what we all think it should be saying?

It's cinfusing because YOU the player might have more than one soldier in combat contact and you pick one.

The alternative-- jump me alone from behind and I'm helpless but bring a friend and I can fight both of you, is, indeed, silly. And maybe not what was intended.
I hope you are right Kevin. Every time I think I'm finally playing this game correctly as intended I get shocked by some new interpretation.

I wonder if I have ever played this game properly even one time so far out of 50+ attempts and it's a major bummer to have to present to a game group yet another lost in translation amendment. "Guys, forget what you knew before and do this instead," followed shortly after by, "nope, remember that's the wrong way of doing things that we've ingrained into a bad habit." Relearning over and over is not much fun for anyone.
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R M Chair General wrote:
kduke wrote:
I'm thinking "combat contact" requires touching with the frontal arc. The rule wording given is hard to follow, but if you figure"the player's soldiers" are friendlies, then isn't it saying what we all think it should be saying?

It's cinfusing because YOU the player might have more than one soldier in combat contact and you pick one.

The alternative-- jump me alone from behind and I'm helpless but bring a friend and I can fight both of you, is, indeed, silly. And maybe not what was intended.
I hope you are right Kevin. Every time I think I'm finally playing this game correctly as intended I get shocked by some new interpretation.

I wonder if I have ever played this game properly even one time so far out of 50+ attempts and it's a major bummer to have to present to a game group yet another lost in translation amendment. "Guys, forget what you knew before and do this instead," followed shortly after by, "nope, remember that's the wrong way of doing things that we've ingrained into a bad habit." Relearning over and over is not much fun for anyone.


Well I haven't played nearly as many times as you Brian, but I feel the same way in that it's frustrating in having to contradict what you taught someone earlier. Or saying, "Well it says this in the rulebook, but it's been "officially" ruled different on BGG" or "It says this in the rulebook, but I'm not sure exactly how that works in this situation, so I'm going to rule it "this" way." It doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in me as the teacher or in the rules themselves from the people I try to teach.

 
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Jerry Tresman
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Once the combat contact is joined by a soldier (pivoting) and moving in a straight line into contact between his front arc and an enemy, the fight will take place at the end of the phase. This means other soldiers yet to act can either join in or turn to face an enemy.

when resolving the fight (page 15 of Rules 1.72)
"The Player with the Initiative plays one card (and applies its Combat Result) against any enemy Soldier that is contacted by any of the player’s Soldiers in this Combat Contact. The card takes immediate effect."

I believe that the phrase against the Soldier that is contacted means only enemies that are in the front arc of a soldier can have cards played against them.

This is implied by previous and subsequent paragraphs but is not explicitly stated. These are the only soldiers that draw cards for the fight hand which represents the whole melee rather than a series of individual attacks.

I play and interpret it this way.

If you jump someone from behind and have someone attack from the front then you do indeed run the risk of the enemy killing the man in front of him, he cant kill the man behind. Clearly if you have the initiative the more cards in your fight hand the better , if you don't then it may be best to just sneak up on the enemy.

Its all about timing , will the enemy have the ability to move and face you before the fight etc..
 
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Well I'm still going to play it the way I had been playing it regardless of how the rules can be interpreted or whatever "new" ruling may come down. Otherwise there is no reason to try to go 2 vs 1 in Combat Contact with one of your soldiers in the rear or in a position where the single soldier can't contact both enemy soldiers with his firing arcs. That would almost be like saying that as long as you can shoot at an enemy soldier that is in your firing arc, you can also shoot at an enemy soldier that isn't in your firing arc as long as they are in range.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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Greg that is exactly what I said , we are in agreement.

I Read the rules as saying you can only contribute to the fight hand from soldiers who have an enemy in their front arc and you can only play cards against enemies that are in the front arc of one of your soldiers.
 
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Yeah we're in agreement Jerry

I think that since Rob presented an answer that was the opposite of what we have previously believed and played, it has confused things a little.
 
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Hahma wrote:
I think that since Rob presented an answer that was the opposite of what we have previously believed and played [is most likely incorrect since it makes no sense whatsoever], it has confused things a little [immensely because it is considered an official response that we are doing things since day one incorrectly].
FTFY


rbelli wrote:
HOWEVER, if you have a soldier touching his frontal arc and another soldier in the rear or flank. He still draws Fight cards and may attack EITHER of your soliders since he has Fight cards to play with. Even you have a 4 on 1, with a similar situation he can still attack any of the 4 soldiers in the close combat.

The only time a soldier may draw Fight cards in Close Combat without having to have his frontal arc touching an enemies base is when a Prisoner is being escorted.
Sorry to call you out like this Rob, but you are the one reviewing the rules for goodness sake! Is this statement correct or incorrect?

Right or wrong, we all seem to have all coalesced in agreement regarding the necessity of a soldier's frontal shooting arc needing to be in physical contact with a desired target in a combat contact situation in order to use a fight card against that target during a fight. We think that no frontal arc contact equals no fight card application. What does Jeff say about all this? Please help us understand which is the proper way to do things. Thanks very much.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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I don't see any grounds for Rob's interpretation.

I don't recall any previous discussions on aiming points. The rule as I understood and Jeff and I were in contact on this , is pivot in place and then a straight line from any point in the attackers front arc to any point on the enemies base. This is easy to understand and does not require a mythical centre point or discussions of centre including dog tag etc. It also allows a soldier to use knife or weapon as intended as opposed to grappling.


The actions within a phase happen within a short timescale, giving a soldier time to turn and face an attacker. Close combat should allow an advantage based on momentum , surprise and initiative (alert , leadership) which to hold beyond first contact is unlikely, IMO SMG simulates this by locking the fight until the end of the next phase if it is not won in the current phase.

Planning the attack by calculating the enemies chance of response over any remaining actions ,if any , gives SMG another great tactical option within a short rule set. Only three words stopped this rule being clear and consist. "IN FRONT ARC"

If this rule interpretation is overruled by Rob, then I will break my own rule , to play as the designer intended and house rule it.... I am happy with terrain abstraction and all the other core rules on look,hide ,move and shoot especially the last change on hide counting terrain in the spotters tile.
They all make sense especially considering scale and weapons.

Maybe terrain LOS could be blocked by more solid terrain(stone, sandbags,brick) if the LOS passes through opposing sides, destroyed by artillery and certain rocket type weapons.

We are really close to tight core rules. IMO we need Jeff to respond, I appreciate he is busy and the passing of his friend Craig S. Taylor has understandably taken his time. It is fundamental for SMG we have a clean tight core set of rules.

I would also like to see all expansion rules, equipment, hasty positions etc consolidated into a short rule booklet when tactics is released , even if for download only as living rules.

A guide on teaching SMG with photos and a worked tutorial game adding rules through say 5 turns, would act as a learning , demo and teaching aid. As downloadable only it would not be constrained by print costs and could have margins notes to refer to rules sections. E.g. basic 4.1.2 or expansion 2.1.1 etc.
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A living rules document like Jerry suggested would be an great addition to the SMG website. There could be 2 files, the core rulebook and a consolidated ruleset with all expansion rules.

I vote for this option so we can help tighten up the rules.

Maus
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