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Subject: Grand Campaign Questions rss

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Bindusri de Silva
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I have several questions:

1/ The Confederation of the Rhine: this has happened in all our Grand Campaigns, but I am curious about the Empire nation. Does the French player simply walk in unopposed into the Empire nation and conquer it to set up the Confederation of the Rhine next turn? Does this have any implications for Prussian neutrality etc

2/ Naval interceptions: When attempting to intercept the active players Fleet when it moves into a sea zone do successful interceptions fight as one combat, if rolling ship by ship or a single battle with all successful interceptions? Ships intercepting from a port, particularly Gibraltar, do they return to port after the interception or remain at sea? Does it depend upon whether the interception was successful or not?

3/ Landwehr for Campaign Game EE. I note Campaign Rule DD covers Landwehr in detail specifying the time period Landwehr was made available to Austria and Prussia, however EE makes no such reference and specifically states not to use any Rules from DD. Is this for game balance? Linked to this is whether Innsbruck and Prague are Austrian Production cities?

4/ Amphibious invasions. Can the player simply disembark troops in any undefended coastal city and capture it? As the English player I captured Bayonne and Marseilles this way to give me 2 major cities in France just before the Alliance rolls and got Prussia to be Anti-French in Turn 2 as a result.
The rules state that Infantry that is disembarked from a ships during the naval phase cannot move. Assume there are 4 Russian Inf in Memel without a general leader. The Russian player using a transport disembarks 2 Inf and a general into Memel during the naval phase. Attrition kills 1 Inf.
During the Ground Movement phase, can the Russians move a maximum of 3 or 4 Inf in Memel using the general who was just disembarked or none at all?

5/ More of an observation than a question, but it seems odd to me that you roll for capitulation of Sieges starting in the same turn an enemy withdraws into his city. To me at least it would make more sense to begin rolling after the first turn.

6/ Blockades. Is a naval battle and victory required to impose a blockade, or can the active player simply sail his fleet into any blockaded port and impose the blockade. The result F - blockading force must attack or retreat seems to indicate the opportunity for a naval battle from the results table.
F* seems to give the blockading force the option of battle.
On further review of the rules in Z.X.F.5.c seems to indicate that a result of F indicates that naval combat takes place at the option of the blockaded force and hence no naval battle is required unless an F* result is achieved which only then allows the blockading force the option of battle.

7/ Captured ships. After a naval battle involving 3 FR ships and 2 BR and 1 Russian ship, a FR ship was captured and placed under the Russian ship (to preserve the morale of the group for any further naval rounds) At the conclusion of the battle can the Russian ship tow the captured ship to a British port for repair to convert as a British ship or is the ship a Russian prize that needs to be towed to a Russian port?
If there had been any future naval battles and the Allied ships were forced to retreat as a result would they retreat with their prize? If not could they sink the prize or would the French regain possession of their captured ship?

8/ Units of different colour stacking together. If French and (pro-French) Spanish stack together, for attrition purposes can the losses be transferred to the lower morale unit? Can a (pro-French) Spanish general be used to move French Infantry and vice versa and partake in attack and defence together? What is to stop the French player from trying to kill off as many Spanish units as he can by attacking British/Portuguese etc prior to the French invasion of Spain and perhaps moving the Spanish units out of their cities to allow their easy capture?

9/ We are playing option rule Z.X.K. 2 & 3 Blucher and Schwarzenberg as zero leaders. I assume for any battles where they are in the hex we roll for leadership survival for them?

10/ Limited minor production. Western Minor States Holland and Portugal. Holland is pro-French while Portugal is anti-French. The rules limit production from the Western Minor States to only one nation per Reinforcement phase, does this mean that if the Pro-French Holland which produces first uses the Production point then the Anti-French cannot use the production point for production?

Thanks for going through my questions.
cheers Lakers24
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Nick West
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Before any of us wade in, which version of the rules are you using?
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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notquitekarpov wrote:
Before any of us wade in, which version of the rules are you using?


I second this - as some of these, naval rules in particular, have undergone extensive revision via General Q&A's and articles, you need to specify exactly what you're using.

Lakers24 wrote:

5/ More of an observation than a question, but it seems odd to me that you roll for capitulation of Sieges starting in the same turn an enemy withdraws into his city. To me at least it would make more sense to begin rolling after the first turn.


Given monthly turns, and the fact that siege resolution occurs 'at the end' of the combat phase, I do not find it at all unreasonable that there is a small (1/6) chance of a city falling in the same turn it is put under siege. Quite the reverse, I would find it questionable if cities under siege were 'guaranteed' a minimum 2 month period of survival, which is more or less what not rolling until the next combat phase after the siege began would imply.

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Bindusri de Silva
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Unofficial Fourth Edition
War and Peace - Consolidated Fourth Edition Rulebook - 12292010

Found on Vassal website

All optional rules except:
U Tactical Matrix
Y Limited Intelligence,
DD except for Landwehr which we decided to use
Allied Guards because we could not find the counters
GG Napoleon vs LLoyd's of London seemed like too much work

appreciate the help.
cheers Lakers24
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Bindusri de Silva
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Lakers24 wrote:

5/ More of an observation than a question, but it seems odd to me that you roll for capitulation of Sieges starting in the same turn an enemy withdraws into his city. To me at least it would make more sense to begin rolling after the first turn.


Given monthly turns, and the fact that siege resolution occurs 'at the end' of the combat phase, I do not find it at all unreasonable that there is a small (1/6) chance of a city falling in the same turn it is put under siege. Quite the reverse, I would find it questionable if cities under siege were 'guaranteed' a minimum 2 month period of survival, which is more or less what not rolling until the next combat phase after the siege began would imply.
[/q]

I guess it is a matter of perspective did all the other actions take place at the start of the month, part way through the month or at the end of the month. Given that the naval phase and ground movement phase occur before the combat phase, then I considered it reasonable that the combat phase and siege phases occur towards the end of the month. In terms of game play, if you withdraw into the city to avoid combat you risk the city falling but again it depends upon how you view things. In most wargames I have played siege resolution tests occur in the turn following to allow the besieged to summon reinforcements from nearby regions. Anyway those are the rules.
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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I'll leave the 4th edition rules questions to John, as he's quite active here and those are his 'baby'.

Regarding sieges and the sequencing, I might agree more with your point if this were a 'standard' IGO-UGO system. However, in this game the non-phasing player has a number of options, including fighting a 'field battle' in the city hex and potentially reinforcing such a battle from other hexes. So it's not as if the phasing player can simply 'walk into' a hex and put it under siege immediately and automatically. In that context, having a non-zero probability of 'surrendering' that same turn is not unreasonable, IMHO.
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John Gant
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Bindrusi, you ask some good questions. Also, some of what you allude to points out the continued weaknesses in the Grand Campaign Game using the official rules and/or even with the official 2nd edition and the variants. I took the same path of questions and concluded a large re-write was needed. Thus the sequel.

That doesn't help you much here though.

4th Edition. Thank you for that. This is the best version of the game still using the majority of the old structure.

I'm short on time so not able to answer each point in detail yet. Will as soon as I can.

Look at the sequence of play carefully. That will help with your naval question on Gibraltar. Basically, either these ships of the line are on station or they are pursuing in the open seas. Not both.

More later,

--JokerRulez
 
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Thanks DeadKenny, I'm not up with the lingo here on 'standard' IGO-UGO system. You make a good point re ability to reinforce field battles too so on those grounds I change my mind and agree with you.

Appreciate your effort John. Unfortunately both my opponent and I had a really old set of rules for WaP. I last played this game in the late 1980s, showing my age here. So we opted to go for a common set we both could both easily access on online. We might push forward and try and use Struggle btw England and France next time... assuming this game does not take as long as as we expect it to, and we are both still keen to give it a go.

Can I add something else to my long list that I just thought of.

11/ A general in a city hex with SP. He gets attacked. Can you retreat the SPs(
 
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It seems to have got cutoff, maybe it was the brackets try again

Can I add something else to my long list that I just thought of.

11. A general in a city hex with SP. He gets attacked. Can you retreat the SPs less than 4 into the city but leave the general outside knowing that a general on his own can evade capture. Note general does not participate in the battle or are you compelled to fight a field battle with say 1 SP to ensure your general's non-capture.
 
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Lakers24 wrote:
Thanks DeadKenny, I'm not up with the lingo here on 'standard' IGO-UGO system. You make a good point re ability to reinforce field battles too so on those grounds I change my mind and agree with you.


IGO-UGO, meaning 'I go, you go'. In other words the 'traditional' type of system whereby I complete my turn, including all movement and combat determination / resolution, while you essentially do 'nothing' (perhaps you handle the retreat of your own units, as dictated by combat results if applicable). The 'opposite' would be some sort of 'intertwined' sequence, where we alternate moving units / groups of units. That might be based on some sort of 'initiative' determination, drawing chits etc. This game is somewhere inbetween, in that while I move you cannot 'react' per se, but you can 'react' during combat by withdrawing or reinforcing ongoing combats.

Lakers24 wrote:
It seems to have got cutoff, maybe it was the brackets try again

Can I add something else to my long list that I just thought of.

11. A general in a city hex with SP. He gets attacked. Can you retreat the SPs less than 4 into the city but leave the general outside knowing that a general on his own can evade capture. Note general does not participate in the battle or are you compelled to fight a field battle with say 1 SP to ensure your general's non-capture.


As I understand it, your intent is to have the SP's in the city, but you do not want the leader to be inside the city (where he could be captured if / when the city falls). You can withdraw from combat, and can split up into separate 'forces' when doing so. So could you not simply have the SP's retreat into the city, and the leader into an adjacent hex?
 
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deadkenny wrote:


As I understand it, your intent is to have the SP's in the city, but you do not want the leader to be inside the city (where he could be captured if / when the city falls). You can withdraw from combat, and can split up into separate 'forces' when doing so. So could you not simply have the SP's retreat into the city, and the leader into an adjacent hex?


Thanks for defining IGO-UGO I should have figured that one out by its name! blush

Yes this is what I wanted, though 12292010 4th edition rules mean that the leader joins the nearest stack of units of the same colour.
However I wondered whether it would be against the spirit of the game/ time for the general to abandon his army to their fate while he ran for the hills.

cheers Lakers24
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Lakers24 wrote:
...However I wondered whether it would be against the spirit of the game/ time for the general to abandon his army to their fate while he ran for the hills.


Instances, while not specifically related to inside / outside of a city, would be Napoleon abandoning his army in Egypt, and returning to Paris after his army retreated out of Russia into Poland. At a 'lower level', of course a commander could be shot for abandoning his troops without orders. However, the higher level could order a commander to do so (essentially 'redeploying' him, while leaving the forces under a subordinate commander).
 
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John Gant
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Tell me if I missed something.

Lakers24 wrote:

1/ The Confederation of the Rhine: this has happened in all our Grand Campaigns, but I am curious about the Empire nation. Does the French player simply walk in unopposed into the Empire nation and conquer it to set up the Confederation of the Rhine next turn? Does this have any implications for Prussian neutrality etc


Yes. No.

This is one of the weak areas of the original GCG, not fixed through the 4th Edition.

Quote:

2/ Naval interceptions: When attempting to intercept the active players Fleet when it moves into a sea zone do successful interceptions fight as one combat, if rolling ship by ship or a single battle with all successful interceptions? Ships intercepting from a port, particularly Gibraltar, do they return to port after the interception or remain at sea? Does it depend upon whether the interception was successful or not?



Already answered this one, above.

Quote:

3/ Landwehr for Campaign Game EE. I note Campaign Rule DD covers Landwehr in detail specifying the time period Landwehr was made available to Austria and Prussia, however EE makes no such reference and specifically states not to use any Rules from DD. Is this for game balance? Linked to this is whether Innsbruck and Prague are Austrian Production cities?


Optional rules and variants can be used however you choose. If you like certain components of one or another, piece them together and find an opponent who agrees.

Quote:

4/ Amphibious invasions. Can the player simply disembark troops in any undefended coastal city and capture it? As the English player I captured Bayonne and Marseilles this way to give me 2 major cities in France just before the Alliance rolls and got Prussia to be Anti-French in Turn 2 as a result.

The rules state that Infantry that is disembarked from a ships during the naval phase cannot move. Assume there are 4 Russian Inf in Memel without a general leader. The Russian player using a transport disembarks 2 Inf and a general into Memel during the naval phase. Attrition kills 1 Inf.

During the Ground Movement phase, can the Russians move a maximum of 3 or 4 Inf in Memel using the general who was just disembarked or none at all?


Yes. A city in a coastal hex is just another coastal hex. No movement is allowed following disembarkation. None at all. However, notice combat is not considered movement nor is advancement after combat considered movement. You could therefore land, initiate combat, win the combat, and advance in to the hex.

Quote:

5/ More of an observation than a question, but it seems odd to me that you roll for capitulation of Sieges starting in the same turn an enemy withdraws into his city. To me at least it would make more sense to begin rolling after the first turn.


Quick termination of sieges was common. The moment of initiation was critical for the defenders. Some significant failures in this stage could lead to rapid capitulation.

Quote:

6/ Blockades. Is a naval battle and victory required to impose a blockade, or can the active player simply sail his fleet into any blockaded port and impose the blockade. The result F - blockading force must attack or retreat seems to indicate the opportunity for a naval battle from the results table.

F* seems to give the blockading force the option of battle.
On further review of the rules in Z.X.F.5.c seems to indicate that a result of F indicates that naval combat takes place at the option of the blockaded force and hence no naval battle is required unless an F* result is achieved which only then allows the blockading force the option of battle.


No, blockading merely means the positioning of ships. Yeap, option of battle for the blockading forces. The entry seems clear to me: “Blockading may attack”.

Quote:

7/ Captured ships. After a naval battle involving 3 FR ships and 2 BR and 1 Russian ship, a FR ship was captured and placed under the Russian ship (to preserve the morale of the group for any further naval rounds) At the conclusion of the battle can the Russian ship tow the captured ship to a British port for repair to convert as a British ship or is the ship a Russian prize that needs to be towed to a Russian port?
If there had been any future naval battles and the Allied ships were forced to retreat as a result would they retreat with their prize? If not could they sink the prize or would the French regain possession of their captured ship?


Optional rules may have some areas of grey. Work it out the best you can. Only the same nationality port can be used. No, Russians could not use British ports for this.

Quote:

8/ Units of different colour stacking together. If French and (pro-French) Spanish stack together, for attrition purposes can the losses be transferred to the lower morale unit? Can a (pro-French) Spanish general be used to move French Infantry and vice versa and partake in attack and defence together? What is to stop the French player from trying to kill off as many Spanish units as he can by attacking British/Portuguese etc prior to the French invasion of Spain and perhaps moving the Spanish units out of their cities to allow their easy capture?


The rules on G. Attrition and J. Ground Movement are clear and answer these questions. These are mostly unchanged through the 4th Edition. Any combination desirable for attrition. No, only like colored infantry and leaders may move together. Yes, there is some weakness in the original grand campaign around Spain, solved in the sequel.

Quote:

9/ We are playing option rule Z.X.K. 2 & 3 Blucher and Schwarzenberg as zero leaders. I assume for any battles where they are in the hex we roll for leadership survival for them?


Yeap.

Quote:

10/ Limited minor production. Western Minor States Holland and Portugal. Holland is pro-French while Portugal is anti-French. The rules limit production from the Western Minor States to only one nation per Reinforcement phase, does this mean that if the Pro-French Holland which produces first uses the Production point then the Anti-French cannot use the production point for production?


Good question, and one I believe I only cleared up for the sequel. The rule should state one unit per side. Both the pro and anti French can produce one per turn.

Quote:

11. A general in a city hex with SP. He gets attacked. Can you retreat the SPs less than 4 into the city but leave the general outside knowing that a general on his own can evade capture. Note general does not participate in the battle or are you compelled to fight a field battle with say 1 SP to ensure your general's non-capture.


The assumption of your question is flawed. A leader who loses a battle and has no troops left does not automatically evade.

Hope this helps.

--JokerRulez
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Thanks heaps for going through all this for me.

JokerRulez wrote:
Tell me if I missed something.

Quote:

2/ Naval interceptions: When attempting to intercept the active players Fleet when it moves into a sea zone do successful interceptions fight as one combat, if rolling ship by ship or a single battle with all successful interceptions? Ships intercepting from a port, particularly Gibraltar, do they return to port after the interception or remain at sea? Does it depend upon whether the interception was successful or not?



[q="JokerRulez"]

Already answered this one, above.


Sorry this part was not answered:


When attempting to intercept the active players Fleet when it moves into a sea zone do successful interceptions fight as one combat, if rolling ship by ship or a single battle with all successful interceptions?




Ships intercepting from a port, particularly Gibraltar, do they return to port after the interception or remain at sea? Does it depend upon whether the interception was successful or not?

From your answer just to be clear the fleet is at sea and should remain there for your opponents' land phase making Gibraltar vulnerable.

Quote:

4/ Amphibious invasions. Can the player simply disembark troops in any undefended coastal city and capture it? As the English player I captured Bayonne and Marseilles this way to give me 2 major cities in France just before the Alliance rolls and got Prussia to be Anti-French in Turn 2 as a result.

The rules state that Infantry that is disembarked from a ships during the naval phase cannot move. Assume there are 4 Russian Inf in Memel without a general leader. The Russian player using a transport disembarks 2 Inf and a general into Memel during the naval phase. Attrition kills 1 Inf.

During the Ground Movement phase, can the Russians move a maximum of 3 or 4 Inf in Memel using the general who was just disembarked or none at all?


JokerRulez wrote:

Yes. A city in a coastal hex is just another coastal hex. No movement is allowed following disembarkation. None at all. However, notice combat is not considered movement nor is advancement after combat considered movement. You could therefore land, initiate combat, win the combat, and advance in to the hex.


Sorry this part was not answered:

The rules state that Infantry that is disembarked from a ships during the naval phase cannot move. Assume there are 4 Russian Inf in Memel without a general leader. The Russian player using a transport disembarks 2 Inf and a general into Memel during the naval phase. Attrition kills 1 Inf.

During the Ground Movement phase, can the Russians move a maximum of 3 or 4 Inf in Memel using the general who was just disembarked or none at all?


Quote:

7/ Captured ships. After a naval battle involving 3 FR ships and 2 BR and 1 Russian ship, a FR ship was captured and placed under the Russian ship (to preserve the morale of the group for any further naval rounds) At the conclusion of the battle can the Russian ship tow the captured ship to a British port for repair to convert as a British ship or is the ship a Russian prize that needs to be towed to a Russian port?
If there had been any future naval battles and the Allied ships were forced to retreat as a result would they retreat with their prize? If not could they sink the prize or would the French regain possession of their captured ship?


JokerRulez wrote:

Optional rules may have some areas of grey. Work it out the best you can. Only the same nationality port can be used. No, Russians could not use British ports for this.


Ok and are the Russians not allowed to gift the captured ship to the British either? I heard there is no trading between players. But it they are the one player?

Quote:

11. A general in a city hex with SP. He gets attacked. Can you retreat the SPs less than 4 into the city but leave the general outside knowing that a general on his own can evade capture. Note general does not participate in the battle or are you compelled to fight a field battle with say 1 SP to ensure your general's non-capture.


JokerRulez wrote:

The assumption of your question is flawed. A leader who loses a battle and has no troops left does not automatically evade.


Sorry but using rules from 12292010 Fourth Edition Section P.10 state that providing the leader survives according to Section R (which he should do 97.2% of the time) the leader/general is moved to the nearest hex (in terms of movement points counted from the battle hex) containing un-besieged unit of the same colour.

Discussed this issue with Deadkenny too and he indicated that this is fine matter.

JokerRulez wrote:

Hope this helps.


It sure has, we certainly appreciate all your the help plus that of Deadkenny too!

cheers Lakers24
 
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All successful naval interceptions should fight in one battle, I believe.

Correct, Gibraltar would be vulnerable. Leave a naval unit there, or free it for an invasion.

No movement is allowed after disembarkation. None.

No trading between "players" is misleading. No trading between "powers" is better.

I can't recall the rules on "gifting" naval units. Take a look at the 2nd edition naval rules variant.

I don't think I understand the scenario you are creating for your leader unit to retreat and get away. Can you post once just for that?

--JokerRulez

 
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JokerRulez wrote:
More:

No movement is allowed after disembarkation. None.


Not trying to move the Infantry that disembarked,
just the general and the troops that were already in the port.
Note the general was not in the port until after the naval phase

JokerRulez wrote:

I don't think I understand the scenario you are creating for your leader unit to retreat and get away. Can you post once just for that?


From my game with Gerry:
Note we are playing the Demoralization rule
A named general eg: John is a city hex which is also a supply cource with 2 SP, no cavalry. Hence retreat away from the hex is not possible. In 2nd round of combat and he is attacked by 8 French, including cavalry. If John withdraws into the city, he lose 1 SP for retreating and the resultant battle will be 4:1 resulting in an automatic D3 with John captured and the loss of 2SP.
If John remains outside the city, it is still 4:1 which results in an automatic D3. Then the Austrians lose 1 SP and have 83.3% chance of having the other SP surrendering, though John gets away.
The objective for the Austrians is not to have any units surrender.
Solution was withdraw army into city and leave John outside. Hence no units surrender and John is not captured but relocated to the nearest stack of Austrian units.

Interestingly in this scenario, something that only occurs to me now is that the nearest stack of Austrians are the SP inside the city...

So maybe a field battle should have been fought instead risking the surrender of 1 SP to ensure Johns non-capture.

--JokerRulez

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Lakers24 wrote:
... John is a city hex which is also a supply cource with 2 SP, no cavalry. Hence retreat away from the hex is not possible....


For me, that is the questionable assumption. As long as the retreating force in question is within the city capacity, I suppose you could read the rules in that way. However, as soon as you have 1 'excess' SP, that reading leads to a contradiction - excess SP's are on the one hand obligated to retreat into the city (being the nearest supply source) and at the same time are prohibited from doing so according to another rule.
 
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deadkenny wrote:
Lakers24 wrote:
... John is a city hex which is also a supply cource with 2 SP, no cavalry. Hence retreat away from the hex is not possible....


For me, that is the questionable assumption. As long as the retreating force in question is within the city capacity, I suppose you could read the rules in that way. However, as soon as you have 1 'excess' SP, that reading leads to a contradiction - excess SP's are on the one hand obligated to retreat into the city (being the nearest supply source) and at the same time are prohibited from doing so according to another rule.


Actually we got this from Vicomte13's post on rules regarding retreating from battle which I guess to us made a lot of sense.

Re the 'excess' SP it simply compels a field battle with any troops that cannot get inside the city or fight a field battle with all troops, unless you have SP of the same colour in an adjacent hex.
 
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Lakers24 wrote:
Interestingly in this scenario, something that only occurs to me now is that the nearest stack of Austrians are the SP inside the city...

So maybe a field battle should have been fought instead risking the surrender of 1 SP to ensure Johns non-capture.


The point is that when units accompanying a leader are eliminated, the leader variously may be harmed, killed, escape, or be captured. But the rules are not explicit about situations when a leader is not associated with any units to be eliminated. We can create such a scenario as follows:

Scenario: The active player initiates combat in a city hex, and you announce that the 2 SPs are inside the city and the leader is outside the city (alone).

If the attacking force besieges, then they move into the field outside the city, which has 0 SPs and a leader. I would consider this like an overrun*, and so the leader moves to the nearest hex with same-color units: inside the city. (Actually, in an overrun the leader moves to the nearest hex with same-color units that are not besieged, so order matters. I argue that they move into the hex first and then the siege starts, but arguably the units are already under siege and the leader must go elsewhere. Decide for yourself.)

On the other hand, if the attacking force assaults, then the rules don't explicitly say that they move into the hex. My interpretation is that the leader can hide outside the city during the assault (hexes being 40 km across). But, if any of the assaulting force moves into the city (after eliminating all SPs in the city OR by calling off the assault and starting a siege), then it is again like an overrun for the leader. In this case, I would think the leader cannot get into the city and must go elsewhere.

However, if no units are moved into the hex, then the leader is free to use his 10 movement points during the next Movement Phase. This would only happen if the active player decides not to advance after eliminating all SPs in the city during an assault OR not to besiege leftover SPs in the city after calling off the assault. Both seem unlikely, but possible.
 
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Lakers24 wrote:
deadkenny wrote:
... As long as the retreating force in question is within the city capacity, I suppose you could read the rules in that way. However, as soon as you have 1 'excess' SP, that reading leads to a contradiction - excess SP's are on the one hand obligated to retreat into the city (being the nearest supply source) and at the same time are prohibited from doing so according to another rule.


Actually we got this from Vicomte13's post on rules regarding retreating from battle which I guess to us made a lot of sense.

Re the 'excess' SP it simply compels a field battle with any troops that cannot get inside the city or fight a field battle with all troops, unless you have SP of the same colour in an adjacent hex.


However, unless you are playing with the optional demoralised combat rule, which would then allow 'excess' SP's to continue to fight until completely eliminated, a force could be obligated to withdraw (i.e. with zero morale). Thus, if using that interpretation, you have a contradiction. The SP's must withdraw according to one rule, they cannot retreat into the city in excess of capacity but according the interpretation of the withdrawal rule in question they must retreat into the city. Hence the unavoidable contradiction. I sincerely believe that the 'must retreat into the city' interpretation is not what was intended. However, it is clearly an ambiguous area in the rules and should be clarified and agreed to by the players, preferably before starting play.
 
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jmilloy wrote:

Scenario: The active player initiates combat in a city hex, and you announce that the 2 SPs are inside the city and the leader is outside the city (alone).


Although there is no explicit linkage in the RaW, I would see it as being logical to say that if the SP's are obligated to withdraw into the city, then the leader is too. On the other hand, playing it the way I do, which is that SP's have the option (or are obligated, if in excess of the city capacity - see above) to retreat out of the city hex, then the leader has that option as well.

However, if as you describe, there is no field battle and only the leader is left alone outside of the city, it seems to me he would be placed in the city one way or the other. Can you quote the rule that would have a leader in such a situation place anywhere else?
 
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Jeffrey Milloy
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deadkenny wrote:
Although there is no explicit linkage in the RaW, I would see it as being logical to say that if the SP's are obligated to withdraw into the city, then the leader is too.


Agreed. The rule book uses the term force, as in "If a withdrawing force occupies a city hex, it may retreat into an adjacent hex... or it may retreat inside the city." I interpret force to be all SPs and all leaders in the hex but outside the city, the same way that all SPs in a hex are considered committed to a battle. When retreating, if multiple retreat paths are available, the force can be split up and leaders can even be separated from SPs, but nobody can just be left in the hex.

deadkenny wrote:
However, if as you describe, there is no field battle and only the leader is left alone outside of the city, it seems to me he would be placed in the city one way or the other.


If the leader stays alone outside the city and the SPs inside are assaulted and eliminated, but the attacking force doesn't want to advance into the hex, then the leader is safe and just moves during the next Movement Phase. What's wrong with this outcome?

deadkenny wrote:
Can you quote the rule that would have a leader in such a situation place anywhere else?


I have two. The first is much more direct, but the second is similar.

Quote:
6. At the start of any round of combat, the player who controls the city in a given hex has two options if his units are attacked:
a. All of his units may be deployed outside the city and be committed to a field battle.
b. Any number of strength points equal or less than the city's Fortress Capacity (as well as any leaders in the hex) may be placed inside the city; all remaining units in the hex are deployed outside the city and are automatically committed to a field battle.

Note: The player who controls a city may freely transfer units in and out of the city at the start of any round of combat. Only units which are outside of a city may participate in, or be affected by a field battle.


So, before being forced to withdraw (or if playing with Demoralized Combat), *all* of the SPs could be withdrawn into the city leaving only a leader in the field. Same as above...

Quote:
Q. If all of the combat units accompanying a leader are eliminated, what happens to that leader?
A. The owning player immediately rolls the dice to determine if the leader is wounded or killed. If the leader is unharmed, and his force was eliminated in a field battle, the leader is automatically moved to the nearest hex containing an un-besieged unit of the same color. If the leader's force was eliminated inside a city, the leader is captured by the opposing player.


Say the French attack some hex containing 2 Russian SPs, 1 Russian leader, and 1 Austrian leader. What happens if all of the Russian SPs are eliminated? Clearly the Russian leader is either wounded, killed, or moved, but did the units accompany the Austrian leader? The only usage of accompany in the rulebook pertains to Movement, but is very clear: " No infantry may accompany a leader which is not the same color as the infantry unit(s)." This is a similar situation because we have a leader, with no accompanying troops, in a hex that may be advanced into.
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deadkenny wrote:

However, unless you are playing with the optional demoralised combat rule, which would then allow 'excess' SP's to continue to fight until completely eliminated, a force could be obligated to withdraw (i.e. with zero morale). Thus, if using that interpretation, you have a contradiction. The SP's must withdraw according to one rule, they cannot retreat into the city in excess of capacity but according the interpretation of the withdrawal rule in question they must retreat into the city. Hence the unavoidable contradiction. I sincerely believe that the 'must retreat into the city' interpretation is not what was intended. However, it is clearly an ambiguous area in the rules and should be clarified and agreed to by the players, preferably before starting play.


I thought the excess SP unable to withdraw into the city but forced to withdraw without the demoralisation rule would have just surrendered... but we are playing the demoralisation rule in our GC.
 
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Jeffrey Milloy
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deadkenny wrote:
Hence the unavoidable contradiction. I sincerely believe that the 'must retreat into the city' interpretation is not what was intended. However, it is clearly an ambiguous area in the rules and should be clarified and agreed to by the players, preferably before starting play.


I have finally come to agree, and in general I think a strict interpretation of "not farther from a supply source" was not the intent. I think that even if the force could fit with no excess, it has the option to withdraw away from the city. deadkenny, thanks for continuing to help me to this calming interpretation...

Now, help me understand when a leader would be in a city. I can't think of why you would choose to put him in a city, since it's the only way he can be captured and injury or death after a field battle is unlikely. And, by choosing to fight a field battle, the leader can never be forced into the city, correct?

With that, back to the OP (#11)...

If the inactive player chooses not to fight a field battle in some combat round, and leaves the leaders outside the city, then the attacking player has to decide. Do I besiege, trapping the leaders but slowing down the campaign? Or do I assault, allowing the leaders to escape but bringing the conflict to swift resolution? That seems a reasonable and interesting choice! But I'm open to an argument that forces the leaders into the city if assaulted.
 
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John Gant
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From the General magazine answer boxes, Volume 17 #1.

Quote:
Q. If all of the combat units accompanying a leader
are eliminated, what happens to that leader?

A. The owning player immediately rolls the dice to
determine if the leader is wounded or killed. If the
leader is unharmed, and his force was eliminated in
a field battle, the leader is automatically moved to
the nearest hex containing an un-besieged unit of
the same color. If the leader's force was eliminated
inside a city, the leader is captured by the opposing
player. Captured leaders may be exchanged for
other captured leaders, or by any agreement which
is not expressly forbidden in the rules. Note: If a
leader is moved to another hex, he may not be used
to influence combat for the remainder of the
Combat Phase.


I don't see much difference between a leader who starts combat with no troops and one who has lost all of his troops in combat.

--JokerRulez
 
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