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Legacy: Gears of Time» Forums » Rules

Subject: Questions about successful Technologies. rss

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Eric Postpischil
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Is a non-fundamental Technology card whose dependencies are all successful in earlier Timeframes considered successful even there are no influence cubes on it?

The rules state that a Technology succeeds if each of its dependencies succeeds in a previous Timeframe. It adds that fundamental Technologies succeed if influenced. The rules do not state this requirement for non-fundamental Technologies. (The rules do say that Technology cards with no influence are removed, but that is after the determination of success and failure.)
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Ben Harkins
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It doesn't have a chance to be considered successful when success matters, since all technologies without influence cubes are remove. It was redundant to add "if influenced" when talking about fundamentals being successful, but should probably be called out for both types if called out for one. I could see being explicit about both being useful if some future card cared about success before duplicate removal or scoring.

There isn't a single determination of success or failure, and it's helpful to think about it as if the s/f status of a technology changes immediately as the board changes around it. You do resolve the timeline in the order described (clear first, remove duplicates, then score), but there is no explicit "determine if successful" step, where status is retained.

Hope this helps!
-Ben
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Eric Postpischil
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I am trying to see an interpretation of the rules in which this makes sense.

My initial interpretation was that the paragraph about which technologies are considered successful and which are failed is completely implemented. After that, empty cards were removed. Under this interpretation, Mining (without a cube) can succeed because Basic Tools (with a cube) is earlier, and Currency (with a cube) can succeed because Mining succeeds. No rule at this point says to remove Mining because it does not have a cube. Then we are done with success and failure. The next paragraph says to remove cards without cubes. So Mining is discarded. Currency remains, because we are past the point where success or failure matters, and Currency will later participate in scoring.

Given your answer, I think the paragraph about removing cards with no cubes should be part of the determination of success or failure. In fact, simply performing it before the determination, instead of after, may suffice: Remove all empty cards, then each remaining card is successful if and only if each of its prerequisites has a successful earlier card. (Then, after determination of success and failure is complete, remove duplicates.)

Is that correct?
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Chris Heuer
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We do end of round like this:

Remove technologies with no cubes
Resolve pre-emptions
Determine successful/unsuccessful technologies
Give out points based on successful technologies

(now not scoring related stuff)
Bump up the timeline
Move pawns to present day
Deal players up to six cards
Determine player order
 
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Ben Harkins
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Eric wrote:
I am trying to see an interpretation of the rules in which this makes sense.

My initial interpretation was that the paragraph about which technologies are considered successful and which are failed is completely implemented. After that, empty cards were removed. Under this interpretation, Mining (without a cube) can succeed because Basic Tools (with a cube) is earlier, and Currency (with a cube) can succeed because Mining succeeds. No rule at this point says to remove Mining because it does not have a cube. Then we are done with success and failure. The next paragraph says to remove cards without cubes. So Mining is discarded. Currency remains, because we are past the point where success or failure matters, and Currency will later participate in scoring.

Given your answer, I think the paragraph about removing cards with no cubes should be part of the determination of success or failure. In fact, simply performing it before the determination, instead of after, may suffice: Remove all empty cards, then each remaining card is successful if and only if each of its prerequisites has a successful earlier card. (Then, after determination of success and failure is complete, remove duplicates.)

Is that correct?


I think the disconnect is that there is no "determine if successful" activity that happens at a specific time. The paragraph that describes what a successful technology is and what a failed technology is is defining the terms (Hence the "is considered"). You may notice that the paragraph has no verb directed at the reader, while the subsequent paragraphs do ("remove" / "are removed"). The consideration for a technology being successful or not is always (statically) in effect, and is mutable as the board changes (if not, you would need to remember a success status between rounds, etc., which clearly makes no sense based on the rest of the rules). The only time success or failure actually matters is for removing duplicates and giving rewards.

In your example, at the time of scoring Currency is not considered successful (it's missing the mining dependency) and would not be scored (seeing as rewards are only given for successful technologies, and Currency is not considered successful due to failing to meet the definition of successful).

I can see how switching the placement of the two paragraphs might alleviate your confusion, I'll consider it for the rules update. A better solution might be changing the verb to be "is defined as", instead of "is considered" to more clearly indicate that it's ongoing.

Thanks for your thoughts on this, if you need more clarification, see the example on page 7 where printing press does not score since writing no longer exists when scoring (this is not exceptional to the fact that printing press depends on a fundamental technology).
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James Williams
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dachsy wrote:
We do end of round like this:

Remove technologies with no cubes
Resolve pre-emptions
Determine successful/unsuccessful technologies
Give out points based on successful technologies

(now not scoring related stuff)
Bump up the timeline
Move pawns to present day
Deal players up to six cards
Determine player order


Just to clarify this. Isn't there a step where after scoring based on successful technologies, each player moves one cube from each successful technology to their influence pool. And each player moves one cube from each failed technology to the supply. It's preformed after giving out points, correct?
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James Williams
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Actually, I think I misstated that. The player with the most influence on each successful technology moves one cube to their influence pool. And for failed technologies, the player with the most influence, moves one cube to the supply.
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Chris Heuer
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Correct, after scoring a cube is removed from each technology of the player who has the most influence on it. That cube goes to their influence pool if the technology was successful or to their supply if the technology was unsuccessful.
 
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Todd Sieland-Peterson
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So the order is something like this:

1)Remove all cards without cubes
2)Resolve from time line left to right and remove any cards not meeting the criterion below and return all cubes on that card to the supply:
2.1) all dependencies in a prior time frame exist.
2.2) a card is is attached to this technology that preempts the above rule. (willed into existence)
3) score all cards left in the time line and the direct dependencies.
4) remove 1 or more cubes from each card. (as in rules)


 
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Ben Harkins
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arcticfox wrote:
So the order is something like this:

1)Remove all cards without cubes
2)Resolve from time line left to right and remove any cards not meeting the criterion below and return all cubes on that card to the supply:
2.1) all dependencies in a prior time frame exist.
2.2) a card is is attached to this technology that preempts the above rule. (willed into existence)
3) score all cards left in the time line and the direct dependencies.
4) remove 1 or more cubes from each card. (as in rules)




You've got it for the most part, but step 2 is not correct. Here are the steps:

1- Remove technologies without Influence.
2- Remove all but the earliest successful copy of each technology. If no copies are successful, remove all but the latest failed copy. (It's helpful to also tilt remaining failed copies to the side, as not to accidentally score them). As a reminder, to be successful a Technology must have each of its dependencies exist in a previous timeframe and each must be be successful.
3- Score points for each successful technology, gaining its reward value yet again for each time a successful technology directly depends on it.
4- Remove one cube each player who has the most influence on each technology, placing them in influence pools for successful technologies, and to the supply for failed. (It's a good idea to only have one player do all the cube removing as to not inadvertently create ties)

Hope this helps!
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