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Subject: Questions: Timing of card play, negotiations, reorganize action rss

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Dave Heberer
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Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
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Ok, I've played 1.66 times and I have a few questions, mostly around timing (particularly of negotiations) and about the reorganize action.

1) When do responses happen? In what order do they happen if more than one person wants to play pretty much at the same time? Once something has been played on, can you not respond any more? Can you respond more than once to an event?

Suppose we have player A, who responds to someone moving on a track to get 3 dollars per move they make on the track. player B responds to this by trying to remove that guy with some other guy. Can player A (or anyone else, doesn't really matter) respond by canceling the original action with another response? If so, what happens to player Bs guy?

2) The procedure for some stuff seems to be lacking in the rules. When I attack someone (I think) unless I use someone for their enhnacement, they are not going to exhaust. Do they go back to my hand? If they do, when do they go back to my hand?

3) I need clarification on the reorganize action. It says 'draw 2 cards'. From where do they come and where do they go? Do you draw from the luminary stock or your exhaust pile? And do they go to your hand or into the exhaust pile?

4) Is it a universal rule that every time someone is removed, you immediately draw a replacement? If something says to remove from an exhausted pile, does this count exhausted favorites?

5) I need clarification on negotiations, particularly with non-human powers. The rules state that if you would go into negotiations with a uncontrolled power that instead the attacker loses. What does this do for things like, sweden's once per game, cromwell's power, or the guy (can't remember the name) who turns an attack into a neogtiation and a negotiation into an attack? After tying, can I use that guy to switch the negotiation into an attack, or is there no attack then? The wording on sweden's power and cromwell seem to be effectively the same power, but they use different terminology.

6) What exactly is a 'religious action', there's at least one guy that references doing stuff to a religious action. Also, is an attack which modifies the Christendom track an 'action that gains you (cross)'? There are a few guys which will enhance actions that gain you religion (one way or the other), are they playable in an attack?

Can things that do good stuff for you in a negotiation help against neutrals?
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Dirk Knemeyer
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Hi Dave,

Here are some answers:

i7dealer wrote:
Ok, I've played 1.66 times and I have a few questions, mostly around timing (particularly of negotiations) and about the reorganize action.

1) When do responses happen?


Whenever they are eligible to based on the game situation.

i7dealer wrote:
In what order do they happen if more than one person wants to play pretty much at the same time?


Whoever announced first gets it. If it is a genuine "tie" then it is in turn order.

i7dealer wrote:
Once something has been played on, can you not respond any more? Can you respond more than once to an event?


Responses can keep coming so long as the game situation allows them.

i7dealer wrote:
Suppose we have player A, who responds to someone moving on a track to get 3 dollars per move they make on the track. player B responds to this by trying to remove that guy with some other guy. Can player A (or anyone else, doesn't really matter) respond by canceling the original action with another response? If so, what happens to player Bs guy?


This example is a little too abstract, I'm not sure how to rule on it.

i7dealer wrote:
2) The procedure for some stuff seems to be lacking in the rules. When I attack someone (I think) unless I use someone for their enhnacement, they are not going to exhaust. Do they go back to my hand? If they do, when do they go back to my hand?


EVERYONE include in a stack is either removed or exhausted unless their card or an additional special power reverses that. In fact, it is ALWAYS exhaust not remove unless the card explicitly says remove. So, use a guy for his guns, he's exhausted. Use him for an action, enhancement or response, the card itself will direct what happens to them.

i7dealer wrote:
3) I need clarification on the reorganize action. It says 'draw 2 cards'. From where do they come and where do they go? Do you draw from the luminary stock or your exhaust pile? And do they go to your hand or into the exhaust pile?


You are drawing two luminaries from the six piles by the board.

i7dealer wrote:
4) Is it a universal rule that every time someone is removed, you immediately draw a replacement?


Yes, unless explicitly precluded by a special ability or another card (I don't *think* there is anyone in the final game who enables this, but I've designed hundreds of abilities and don't always remember what's in the game.

i7dealer wrote:
If something says to remove from an exhausted pile, does this count exhausted favorites?


No, the "pile" is a discrete thing which the favourites never enter into.

i7dealer wrote:
5) I need clarification on negotiations, particularly with non-human powers. The rules state that if you would go into negotiations with a uncontrolled power that instead the attacker loses. What does this do for things like, sweden's once per game, cromwell's power, or the guy (can't remember the name) who turns an attack into a neogtiation and a negotiation into an attack? After tying, can I use that guy to switch the negotiation into an attack, or is there no attack then? The wording on sweden's power and cromwell seem to be effectively the same power, but they use different terminology.


When humans attack neutrals, if they don't win outright, they lose.

When thinking of card abilities, it is all a question of game state. Like, Cromwell's card wins the negotiation outright. Once a negotiation is triggered, drop Cromwell. You win. That entire card is completed. Cards that say they REVERSE or explicitly block a response after it has happened, those can prevent it. But you can't take something that changes a different game state and play it instead.

I hope that is clear. Reading it, it may not be.

i7dealer wrote:
6) What exactly is a 'religious action', there's at least one guy that references doing stuff to a religious action. Also, is an attack which modifies the Christendom track an 'action that gains you (cross)'? There are a few guys which will enhance actions that gain you religion (one way or the other), are they playable in an attack?


A religious action is an action that is explicitly and directly gaining you cross. It is an action which is primarily and directly intended to advance the religious track. This precludes battles, for which the religious component is secondary. However, a battle that "gains you (cross)" most certainly qualifies for the trigger you are asking about.

i7dealer wrote:
Can things that do good stuff for you in a negotiation help against neutrals?


No they can't. No negotiation happens. Either you storm the gates or you don't.

Dirk
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Francisco Pizarro
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Hi Dave,

Let me throw a few additions to Dirk's reply:

1) Responses, we usually play it by turn order just for ease of use. Rarely do we see two players wanting to play a response on the same action but when they do and it's even relatively close to being played at the same time, turn order trumps. We got into the habit of having a few second delay after an action is played to see if people want to respond to it. If you want to get technical here you can literally do a quick "Response?" question in turn order to see if a player wishes to play a card.

2) The rules have been a focal point of frustration for some, and believe me the message has been received. It's why I wrote the FAQ/Walkthrough articles. Most of the answers to questions people have ARE in fact there, it's usually an organizational issue. For example, in the back of the rulebook within the Key Concepts section the definition of Exhaust says "Lumes are exhausted if they are part of an action". So that includes the Attack! action. So it's there, just clear as mud.

3) Just remember you cannot draw pink cards if you are catholic or purple cards if you are anti-catholic.

5) The rule to remember re: negotiations is that you only negotiate with human players. Period. Cromwell cannot be used unless you attack another human controlled city/territory. (Same w/ Sweden's power.)

--bill
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Dave Heberer
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Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
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1) For re-organize, I still don't know where to draw to. Into my hand or into the exhausted pile?

2) My unanswered question about response timing is when people play on contingent effects.

For responses, I had this come up in the one game I had on Friday. The cards were available in hand for the scenario to go down, but we didn't do it. We just talked about it, decided it was stupid and didn't go there.

I had some pope, which would negate someone's response. I also had a luminary that would negate someone moving on the christendom track. Someone plays a response that said if someone moves the christendom track, they get art advancement. I use pope to stop this. They use response that says if someone acts against you, cancel action and remove the luminary. I use stop movement on christendom track.

Is everything contingent on the movement of the christendom track just taken back? What happens? Where is that described in the rules?

3) There are some cards and printing on the board that just flat out confuse me. Was there a time when the Ottomans were a power? Because that would explain the printing of their attack values on the board.

There is a politics card which has both catholic and anti-catholic ratings. He also has a political rating. Since neither type of player can use it, why does he have a politics rating?

Since a combat enhancement like dude who triples when going over water is going to be part of an attack stack, why put that he exhausts as part of he's ability? He exhausts as part of the stack, evidently. Is this just for consistency? Since I couldn't find anything in the main part of the rules about exhausting people in a stack, this led me to believe that if someone has an ability "Action: go up 1 on the science chart. Exhaust Bob" that it was special that Bob exhausts, cause other people wouldn't exhaust.

4) When talking about the reorganize ability, you remove 1 or 2 luminaries you stack with the action. Do you draw replacements for these removed luminaries, per the 'every luminary removed gets you a luminary?' This is in addition to the two drawn luminaries, right?
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Francisco Pizarro
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i7dealer wrote:
1) For re-organize, I still don't know where to draw to. Into my hand or into the exhausted pile?


The exhaust pile. They are part of the Reorganize action.

Quote:
I had some pope, which would negate someone's response. I also had a luminary that would negate someone moving on the christendom track. Someone plays a response that said if someone moves the christendom track, they get art advancement. I use pope to stop this. They use response that says if someone acts against you, cancel action and remove the luminary. I use stop movement on christendom track. Is everything contingent on the movement of the christendom track just taken back? What happens? Where is that described in the rules?


Let me see if I understand this scenario:

The cards that specifically fit this description are:

Pope Innocent X (Cancels response)
Juraj Krizanic (Cancel an action that advances the religious track)
Bernini (Any time Catholicism advances you gain 1 art)
The Duke of Orleans (Cancel a response played against you; remove initiating luminary and the Duke)

These are the only cards (I think) that fit what you are describing.

So I'm going to assume there was a luminary action played first that advanced Catholicism.

This action triggered the player using Bernini to play his response.

You counter with Pope Innocent X (nullifying Bernini)

The player w/ Bernini now plays the Duke to cancel the response card (Pope Innocent X). The Duke is now removed from play.

So by now we're back to square one as Pope Innocent, Bernini and the Duke are all spent.

The timing of all of this is important. Krizanic, at this point, cannot be played. By playing the Pope to cancel Bernini, the action is now locked in. The Bernini card says, "Any time Catholicism advances, You also gain 1 art." By blocking Bernini it's assumed that Catholicism has advanced. You can't go back after the fact and try and block the initial action that advanced it (whatever it was.)

If you wanted to block the +1 religion action, Krizanic would have to be played first; once you blocked Bernini, that ship sailed.

If you WOULD have played Krizanic first:

Let's say the +1 religion action is played
Player plays Bernini
You play Krizanic to cancel the initial +1 religion action.
Player takes Bernini back into his hand as the Christendom marker was never advanced in the first place.

Quote:
There is a politics card which has both catholic and anti-catholic ratings. He also has a political rating. Since neither type of player can use it, why does he have a politics rating?


Teteria should be put in an errata. Because he has both catholic and anti catholic ratings he CAN use his politics. He is the only card in the game w/ this ability.

Quote:
Since a combat enhancement like dude who triples when going over water is going to be part of an attack stack, why put that he exhausts as part of he's ability? He exhausts as part of the stack, evidently. Is this just for consistency?


Because the question would come up: "is he exhausted or removed?"

[q]4) When talking about the reorganize ability, you remove 1 or 2 luminaries you stack with the action. Do you draw replacements for these removed luminaries, per the 'every luminary removed gets you a luminary?' This is in addition to the two drawn luminaries, right?[q]

No, this was asked before and I need to add it to the FAQ. Was a good question, but no -- the action is what it is. Dump 1 or 2, draw 2 lumes and exhaust them.

--bill
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Dave Heberer
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Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
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Conquistador Games wrote:

Let me see if I understand this scenario:

The cards that specifically fit this description are:

Pope Innocent X (Cancels response)
Juraj Krizanic (Cancel an action that advances the religious track)
Bernini (Any time Catholicism advances you gain 1 art)
The Duke of Orleans (Cancel a response played against you; remove initiating luminary and the Duke)

These are the only cards (I think) that fit what you are describing.

So I'm going to assume there was a luminary action played first that advanced Catholicism.

This action triggered the player using Bernini to play his response.

You counter with Pope Innocent X (nullifying Bernini)

The player w/ Bernini now plays the Duke to cancel the response card (Pope Innocent X). The Duke is now removed from play.

So by now we're back to square one as Pope Innocent, Bernini and the Duke are all spent.

The timing of all of this is important. Krizanic, at this point, cannot be played. By playing the Pope to cancel Bernini, the action is now locked in. The Bernini card says, "Any time Catholicism advances, You also gain 1 art." By blocking Bernini it's assumed that Catholicism has advanced. You can't go back after the fact and try and block the initial action that advanced it (whatever it was.)

If you wanted to block the +1 religion action, Krizanic would have to be played first; once you blocked Bernini, that ship sailed.

If you WOULD have played Krizanic first:

Let's say the +1 religion action is played
Player plays Bernini
You play Krizanic to cancel the initial +1 religion action.
Player takes Bernini back into his hand as the Christendom marker was never advanced in the first place.


Ok. I think these are all my questions, except I just want to say this last part here confuses me. You seem to be saying that once an action has been responded to, it is locked in. Yet, this last example here shows someone canceling an action after it has been responded to. Which is it?
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Francisco Pizarro
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In this scenario, your FIRST response would have to be to cancel the religious action.

Let me give you another example:

Player 1 plays an action that is +1 Catholic track
Player 2 plays the Bernini card
Player 3 plays the Pope card that cancels the Bernini card
Player 4 could use Krizanic to cancel the entire action.

(Again in this case Bernini and the Pope go back in hand, as technically those cards couldn't have been played due to Krizanic killing the action)

This is why there really isn't a set "order" for response card play. Whoever uses Krizanic can basically nix the whole thing, as long as they play Krizanic first and not target Bernini.

What CAN'T happen is Player 3 plays the Pope and then Krizanic. (By playing the Pope they are basically conceding that the +1 action is good to go.)

This is how a situation like this would happen in our group:

Player 1 plays +1 catholic action
Player with Krizanic immediately says "Cancel that. Krizanic says no soup for you."
Player with Bernini says, "Well, Damn. I wanted that art bump."
The game continues.

Going back to your earlier example:

Let's say you play Krizanic and a player tosses out the Duke of Orleans, canceling your response. Krizanic is removed. Now Bernini is played -- you can then play Pope Innocent to cancel Bernini. All perfectly legal.

Really do hope that helps.

bill



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Dave Heberer
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Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
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So in effect, you are saying that a person, by responding to an event is conceding the ability to play something that would cancel that event if something happens later that makes them sad, but another player isn't conceding that at all.

That is an interesting approach to responsive events. Player centric, I don't think I've seen that before.
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