Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
39 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Container» Forums » General

Subject: what is the pt. of the ships anyhow? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
sunday silence
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
So I've now played this game several times and that is my question. WHat is the pt? How does it help the game to make the ship travel two steps in order to auction off goods? Isnt this a waste of time?

Clearly there are other sales going on in this game that dont need logistical transport to be depicted in order to make them work. You obviously simply pick up factory goods and put them in your harbor store. You dont need trucks or dollies or anything. So the game wont break without ships.

So is the pt. of the ship? Tell me. How does this enhance strategy? make the game easier? more exciting? more narrative? etc.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris McMahon
United States
Eau Claire
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
You buy weird things when you have to much GG
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The ships are just a place to store your containers between the harbors or the island.

It also shows what harbor your ship is currently in.

Unless you use both of your actions to move the ship from the harbor to the island or another harbor, it will be at sea.

I guess they could have used a card, but the ships add thematic value.
2 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris McMahon
United States
Eau Claire
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
You buy weird things when you have to much GG
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you are asking why it takes 2 actions to move from harbor to harbor or from harbor to the island, I'm sure it is just a game mechanic. It certainly requires more planning.

I think it works well.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sunday silence
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Leppy wrote:
The ships are just a place to store your containers between the harbors or the island.

It also shows what harbor your ship is currently in.

Unless you use both of your actions to move the ship from the harbor to the island or another harbor, it will be at sea.

I guess they could have used a card, but the ships add thematic value.


I dont think you get my pt. You could jolly well move the harbor goods sstraight to the island. WIthout holding them in a ship. And without it rrequiring two trips.

For instance, look at the factory goods they dont....

Wait a second! Didnt I just say that?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon
United States
Urbana
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The proper question is: why are there not trucks in this game to move from factories to harbors?
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Bachman
United States
Colonie
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It's not clear what you are proposing? Eliminate the shipping to the island altogether? Eliminate the ships themselves and track the movement of containers to the island in other ways?

What exactly are you getting at?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Bachman
United States
Colonie
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
sundaysilence wrote:
Leppy wrote:
The ships are just a place to store your containers between the harbors or the island.

It also shows what harbor your ship is currently in.

Unless you use both of your actions to move the ship from the harbor to the island or another harbor, it will be at sea.

I guess they could have used a card, but the ships add thematic value.


I dont think you get my pt. You could jolly well move the harbor goods sstraight to the island. WIthout holding them in a ship. And without it rrequiring two trips.

Compare the profit margins on harbor goods compared to shipping to the island and maybe you'll see why it should take multiple actions.
8 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sunday silence
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Ward wrote:
It's not clear what you are proposing? Eliminate the shipping to the island altogether? Eliminate the ships themselves and track the movement of containers to the island in other ways?

What exactly are you getting at?



exactly,track the movement to the island in other ways.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Surya Van Lierde is pure Eurosnoot and proud of it!
Belgium
Michelbeke
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ravenskana wrote:
The proper question is: why are there not trucks in this game to move from factories to harbors?

Because trucks are faster and only take 1 action to move the goods, while ships are slower and take more time to move around, thus the need to represent them. That's my take
6 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justus
United States
Las Vegas
Nevada
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sundaysilence wrote:
Ward wrote:
It's not clear what you are proposing? Eliminate the shipping to the island altogether? Eliminate the ships themselves and track the movement of containers to the island in other ways?

What exactly are you getting at?



exactly,track the movement to the island in other ways.


Yeah so what would you propose? The ships work fairly well in creating a limited waystation for each player. It forces you to go to one place at a time to purchase goods and it clearly shows the maximum # of goods you may have "on your ship".

If you have a more elegant solution, I'd love to hear it.

As fro whether its over produced, well hell yeah, this is a very simple game, the resin ships are the sizzle on the steak baby!
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justus
United States
Las Vegas
Nevada
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
as for thematics, it always draws a chuckle when I say that when you buy factory-to warehouse the good gets helicoptered over while ship travel always goes by the slow boat.

But people can deal with the thematic inconsistency, its one of the lesser thematic issues they have come across in their eurogaming careers...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justus
United States
Las Vegas
Nevada
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
as for why do you need to spend so many actions for getting the goods from warehouses to islands....well there's a lot of easy money to be found in a shipping strategy given the bid+subsidy mechanism. As such, the game has been designed and balanced where shipping costs a lot of actions.

You are free to try a "fast boat" variant, I'd love to hear a session report of it.

My question is how did you play a 6+ player game of container (as noted in your comments)? The game goes 3-5.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph
United States
Ewing
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Christmas Card Exchange: 2009 - 2014
badge
I play at EPGS on the 1st and 3rd Saturday of the month and if you live in Eastern PA, Western NJ or Northern DE ... you should too!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Its been a while since I've played but you can go to more than one harbour before heading to the island. The ship is a nice, quick way for everyone one to see what you are eventually going to deliver.
5 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Bohm
United States
Appleton
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
The game strategy is, among other things, action point management.

Too many people see this as just a commodity pricing/market game. For example you'll see a guy with 4 warehouses often price his goods at the same price as they guy with 2 warehouses or, if he prices it higher, the other players won't buy from him. However, conserving ones action points (IE maybe spending more, but with less action points to buy more goods) is just as important.

Shipping is often the most lucrative thing players can do. To balance the game, they made shipping cost more action points so that it is less money earned per action point. Now, it is still probably the highest action point earner (depending on how conservative or competative the bidding gets), but without the limiting factor of adding action points I feel like it would break the game somehow as it would be a disinsentive to any player who chooses a different action (and they would need to or shipping wouldn't exist.)
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justus
United States
Las Vegas
Nevada
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
also because you only have on ship it forces you to choose which harbor to visit...which thus forces the warehouses to stock the "good" stuff...which lets the factories price the hot stuff at higher prices.

As I think about it, the friction (action costs) of shipping is a key for slowing down the tempo of the game which forces you to make decisions all the way up and down the line.

Once again, I'm not saying that a fast ship version wouldn't work, its just that I haven't played such a variant and I think the game as written works pretty damn good.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sunday silence
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Surya wrote:
ravenskana wrote:
The proper question is: why are there not trucks in this game to move from factories to harbors?

Because trucks are faster and only take 1 action to move the goods, while ships are slower and take more time to move around, thus the need to represent them. That's my take


Right I think from the thematic sense this is a very good desription about what the ship portrays. But I am thinking from the tactical sense, one could simply grab a few barrels from a harbor store and place them on the island, ready to auction. Yes?

So it would till work? or not?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sunday silence
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
aaarg_ink wrote:


Yeah so what would you propose? The ships work fairly well in creating a limited waystation for each player. It forces you to go to one place at a time to purchase goods and it clearly shows the maximum # of goods you may have "on your ship".

If you have a more elegant solution, I'd love to hear it.

As fro whether its over produced, well hell yeah, this is a very simple game, the resin ships are the sizzle on the steak baby!


Im not complaining about the resin, my focus is mainly on how the game plays.

A more elegant solution I think is to do the same thing the game does with factory and harbor:

One factory, can hold 2 products for possible sale.
One wharhouse, holds 1 product for possible sale.

So you do the same thing with wharehouses that you buy and place on the island. Eveyone starts with one of course.

One wharehouse on the island: you can purchase up to 2 goods and hold them until you want to auction. Purchase a second one, so you can hold up to 4 goods, with one action pt. before auctioning them. There might be an issue with actions but I dont see how if it's not an issue with production or harbor.

All the current 5-hold ship does is limit you to how you auction and purchase. My idea gives you more flexibility and thus more options. More options = more strategy = more fun.

These wharehouses would also allow you to increase your purchasing volume. So with 2 wharehouses on the island you can purchase up to 4 goods (2 at each harbor) with one action. It shouldnt break the game, instead of buying 4 or 5 at a harbor with one action, you can now buy up to 4 goods at two harbors for that same action.

It would still take an action to auction, but I think now with two actions, you could use one action to purchase say 4 goods from two harbors, place them on island and with second action you then auction. I dont think this makes it too easy, it still takes a second action, only now you have greater flexibility.


This idea would then allow you to manage your volumen of shipping and also how you distribute your auctions. You invest in more wharehouses and you increase your volume as well as have better control of how you auction.

You could in fact buy a larger wharehouse that holds 3 goods, and purchase up to 3 goods at a harbor.

Thematically what does it represent?

Wait for it.......


Shipping! Right? It's really just buying a bigger fleet with greater power and flexibility. Instead of giving all players a 5-hold ship. Everyone starts with a 2 hold ship and you can buy more if you want to pursue shipping. And its consonant with the other game mechanics of plants and wharehouses because it works the very same way

Thanks for all the comments, will try to respond to them all.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sunday silence
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
aaarg_ink wrote:


My question is how did you play a 6+ player game of container (as noted in your comments)? The game goes 3-5.


not sure which comments those were (in my profile? cant remember). I was referring to a game played several years ago and I probably misremembered it. It must have been 5 it sure seemed like a lot.

Recently, in the past week we've played a 3 player and two 4 player games. The last two with the modified ship. Actually one game was a hybrid: my daughter insisted on playing with the standard 5 hold ship, while two of us played with the smaller 2 hold ship and the others with the standard 5 hold. Those with the small ship had option to purchase more, I certainly did but the other didnt. She nearly won, but lost to a well balanced strategy that finished about 85-75 cash/island and she had about 150 mostly from the island.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Surya Van Lierde is pure Eurosnoot and proud of it!
Belgium
Michelbeke
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sundaysilence wrote:
But I am thinking from the tactical sense, one could simply grab a few barrels from a harbor store and place them on the island, ready to auction. Yes?

So it would till work? or not?

I'm not sure. The slowness of the ships also introduces a kind of race element to the game. I want those containers, will I make it to the harbor in time to grab them, while still attending to the other things I want to do?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sunday silence
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Right I get the race element, but if the race is shorter for everyone how does it hurt Also but can invest in ships in order to get products to auction faster. You can also tactically choose what to auction. More choices more strategy no?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Malachi Brown
United States
Hermitage
TN
flag msg tools
It's turtles all the way down.
badge
“Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself.”
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Fast shipping breaks some of tactical forecasting players can do. With the current action point cost, it is not possible to both buy containers from a harbor store and auction them on the same turn. This means that all the players have at least a turn of look-ahead as to what might come up for auction on the island, which can be important in deciding, for example, how much cash to keep on hand and what actions to take, such as bringing your own containers to auction first.

Also, if a single harbor-buy auction can buy containers from multiple harbor stores, I would guess that the strength of investing in warehouses and of a harbor strategy would be vastly diminished because players could cherry pick containers with no additional action point cost. With the current system, it takes an extra 2 actions to get more containers onto the ship.

It's a bummer if such an inconsistency bothers you, but it seems necessary to preserve the game balance. But hey, feel free to try your own variant and let us know how it turns out.
5 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
sundaysilence wrote:
More choices more strategy no?


No. Strategy range is more the product of constraints than freedoms.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sunday silence
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Malachi wrote:

Also, if a single harbor-buy auction can buy containers from multiple harbor stores, I would guess that the strength of investing in warehouses and of a harbor strategy would be vastly diminished because players could cherry pick containers with no additional action point cost. With the current system, it takes an extra 2 actions to get more containers onto the ship..



I dunno, the basic drive system of the game is quite balanced, from past experience most players agree that no one exclusive strategy will work in all cases. Most winning strategies involve some combo of factory, harbor, etc. Why would that situation change now? It's not like everyone will do shipping? Everyone cant do shipping it's a basic part of the overall concept.

There's many built in factors that would prevent just doing shipping. For one thing money. For another thing the number of goods, presumably if everyone is shipping no one is harboring. So these checks and balances are already built in...

I get the action thing, but if this makes shipping better or faster, then players should pay more attention to what is coming up at the island. It should work itself, after all it is an ECONOMIC game. I mean, it's so clean and simple I think this the beauty of the system here, these suggestions shouldnt break it.

I do understand clearclaw's pt. Instead of "strategic range" perhaps "strategic depth" is a better term? Meaning the number of moves ahead? Yeah that sort of thing can be true in certain situations.

Take for instance many card games. If players could play any card they like instead of following the suit lead it makes calculation virtually impossible. There are some games where you dont but most card games have limits on what you can follow...

So I get that as a general pt. I am not so sure it's necessary here and I'm pretty sure it wont break the game. How different the game becomes is an open question for sure. The main basis for this is that the game is an economy and a true economic game should work with more freedoms.

Hooray for Free Market economics! Down with socialist shipping restraints!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
sundaysilence wrote:
The main basis for this is that the game is an economy and a true economic game should work with more freedoms.


Why? I don't see that as true at all. All economies are based around entropy inequalities. Total freedom is also the total absence of any value gradient, and thus the absence of any potential economy.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sunday silence
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
if you could define value gradiant and entropy inequalities that might be productive.

As to what I am saying. An example would be Monopoly where the players can pretty much sale and trade anything they like they are not contrained by the rules.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.