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Subject: A damage card contadicting an Astromech card? rss

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The Man
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There is a damage card I see on uploaded pictures, where white moves are considered red. There is a droid which makes white moves green. If you have such a droid and take the above-mentioned damage, does the damage orverride the droid?
 
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Todd Warnken
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Yes I think the damage would override any abilities you have.
 
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conedguy wrote:
There is a damage card I see on uploaded pictures, where white moves are considered red. There is a droid which makes white moves green. If you have such a droid and take the above-mentioned damage, does the damage orverride the droid?

I have asked FFG to look at this for the upcoming FAQ.
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Alvin Simon
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Page 20 on the rulebook, lower right corner. "Breaking the Rules"
 
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ArcticSnake wrote:
Page 20 on the rulebook, lower right corner. "Breaking the Rules"

This is neither a card conflicting with the core rules, nor a card allowing something while another card forbids it. It's two cards changing the same thing (white arrows) into something else (red arrows / green arrows).
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S Marstiller
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Mundane wrote:
Yes I think the damage would override any abilities you have.


We'll obviously have to wait for an official answer but my gut is to disagree with this.

The droid is on your ship and makes all white arrows green. And then the damage comes which makes all white arrows red. I would argue (probably wrongfully) that the white arrows stopped being white and became green as soon as you put the droid in place so they aren't affected.
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marstiller wrote:
Mundane wrote:
Yes I think the damage would override any abilities you have.


We'll obviously have to wait for an official answer but my gut is to disagree with this.

The droid is on your ship and makes all white arrows green. And then the damage comes which makes all white arrows red. I would argue (probably wrongfully) that the white arrows stopped being white and became green as soon as you put the droid in place so they aren't affected.
Purple Monkey Dishwasher.
 
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Alvin Simon
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haslo wrote:
ArcticSnake wrote:
Page 20 on the rulebook, lower right corner. "Breaking the Rules"

This is neither a card conflicting with the core rules, nor a card allowing something while another card forbids it. It's two cards changing the same thing (white arrows) into something else (red arrows / green arrows).


You might have skipped reading the parts explaining what a card ability is.

See Page 19 lower right: Card Anatomy #2: "Card Ability" for location of Upgrade Card's ability

See Page 16 lower left: Critical Damage: Second Sentence for Damage Card's ability

When a ship suffers damage, players deal the
Damage card facedown and ignore the card’s text.
However, when a ship suffers critical damage,
players deal the Damage card faceup.
The text on faceup Damage cards is resolved as
instructed on the card
. Listed above this ability is a
trait (either Ship or Pilot). The trait has no effect,
but it may be referenced by other cards or abilities.

Second Sentence of Breaking the Rules:
If one card ability (the Damage Card's) forbids an effect,
while another ability (the Upgrade Card's) allows it, the effect
is forbidden.

What we have here are two card abilities that change the same thing. It's a card ability of the damage card changing the card ability of the upgrade card. Hope that was clear enough for you.

Edit: Forgot to add - I don't know where it says that the droid is an upgrade card. Maybe you can argue that the droid is not an upgrade card if you want to.
 
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ArcticSnake wrote:
What we have here are two card abilities that change the same thing.

I agree with that.

ArcticSnake wrote:
It's a card ability of the damage card changing the card ability of the upgrade card.

The damage card and the upgrade card both refer to white arrows, and directly attempt to change the white arrows to something else. Neither of them clearly overrides or even refers to the other.

And neither of them forbids an effect - both of them force (or does the astromech use "may"? I do not have the game yet...) changing white arrows to something else (red arrows and green arrows, respectively). Forcing white arrows to become red arrows is not forbidding white arrows to become green any more than the other way around.

Because no card forbids anything, page 20 does not apply. Or, in other words, ...

haslo wrote:
This is neither a card conflicting with the core rules, nor a card allowing something while another card forbids it.

Oh, and something else:

ArcticSnake wrote:
Hope that was clear enough for you.

Just don't.
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brian
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While I *think* it is going to be ruled that the "negative" (red arrows) overrides the "positive" (green arrows), I do not believe that the rule on Page 20 covers this specific situation.

We are not talking about something that forbids something vs something that allows it. We are talking about two things doing the same thing in different ways (both changing the color of an arrow).

So we really do need an official answer.
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I'm voting that the arrows are no longer white one you have the astromech.
 
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ArcticSnake wrote:
Hope that was clear enough for you.


Please don't do that. We try to keep it nice here.
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The Man
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My question has started something, good. I appreciate the official FAQ request. My gut tells me damage overrides everything, so the droid's ability is out.
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conedguy wrote:
My question has started something, good. I appreciate the official FAQ request. My gut tells me damage overrides everything, so the droid's ability is out.

We actually ran into this during the Furball event on Saturday night at GenCon. One of the Y-Wing had the droid and then got the crit damage as well. So I sent off the email to the development team as soon as I got back on Sunday. My GM resolution was that they just offset and those arrows remain white. But it wasn't a deciding factor because that Y-Wing was destroyed before it mattered.

While I don't have an answer from them yet and I hope it is on the FAQ, no guarantees. But I suspect it will make it on there. I also suspect they are going to wait for the general release so they can collect as many questions as possible before issuing the first FAQ.

So my advice is to pick a solution and stick with it in your games until the FAQ is released.
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rhaak wrote:
ArcticSnake wrote:
Hope that was clear enough for you.


Please don't do that. We try to keep it nice here.


Sorry. This is Star Wars we're talking about. I sometimes get too passionate about Star Wars and when that happens basic etiquette just flies out the window.

Seems to me that until the FAQ comes out the answer is to roll the dice to resolve this rule dispute.

Let me also clarify a few things to make this discussion less vague to other readers:

1. The damage card only changes all turn maneuvers (the 90 degree maneuver - the banks and straights are not affected) to red

2. The droid effect only changes all speed 1 and speed 2 maneuvers (i think, i don't have the cards in front of me - please correct me if i am wrong) to green

3. Assuming point 2 is correct and you end up having both the droid and the damage card the only maneuvers that would be affected are the left and right speed 2 90 degree turns (speed 1 90 degree turn capable fighters that can have an astromech upgrade are not available yet)

So do you think the poor droid is able to repair the damage to the ships' speed 2 turn ability and override the damage, or is it too busy trying to maintain the overall maneuverability of the ship that it has no time to try to repair the damage?
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
My GM resolution was that they just offset and those arrows remain white.


Red and green arrows offsetting each other and the arrows remaining white sounds like a good answer too.
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ArcticSnake wrote:
rhaak wrote:
ArcticSnake wrote:
Hope that was clear enough for you.


Please don't do that. We try to keep it nice here.


Sorry. This is Star Wars we're talking about. I sometimes get too passionate about Star Wars and when that happens basic etiquette just flies out the window.


Thank you.
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ArcticSnake wrote:

1. The damage card only changes all turn maneuvers (the 90 degree maneuver - the banks and straights are not affected) to red

2. The droid effect only changes all speed 1 and speed 2 maneuvers (i think, i don't have the cards in front of me - please correct me if i am wrong) to green


These are both correct, but here's the actual text:

Treat all turn maneuvers ([left turn] or [right turn]) as red maneuvers.

You may treat all 1- and 2-speed maneuvers as green maneuvers.

 
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S Marstiller
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karrde wrote:
ArcticSnake wrote:

1. The damage card only changes all turn maneuvers (the 90 degree maneuver - the banks and straights are not affected) to red

2. The droid effect only changes all speed 1 and speed 2 maneuvers (i think, i don't have the cards in front of me - please correct me if i am wrong) to green


These are both correct, but here's the actual text:

Treat all turn maneuvers ([left turn] or [right turn]) as red maneuvers.

You may treat all 1- and 2-speed maneuvers as green maneuvers.



So there's no mention of "white" arrows on the damage card (guess who hasn't received his copy of the game yet)?

If not then I'd have to change my opinion and say the damage overrides the ability and all turn maneuvers would be red.
 
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marstiller wrote:
karrde wrote:
ArcticSnake wrote:

1. The damage card only changes all turn maneuvers (the 90 degree maneuver - the banks and straights are not affected) to red

2. The droid effect only changes all speed 1 and speed 2 maneuvers (i think, i don't have the cards in front of me - please correct me if i am wrong) to green

These are both correct, but here's the actual text:

Treat all turn maneuvers ([left turn] or [right turn]) as red maneuvers.

You may treat all 1- and 2-speed maneuvers as green maneuvers.

So there's no mention of "white" arrows on the damage card (guess who hasn't received his copy of the game yet)?

If not then I'd have to change my opinion and say the damage overrides the ability and all turn maneuvers would be red.

Thanks for the text, karrde

I don't think it's clear with the full text, no. It's still a question of timing: Does the damage card change the turns to red first, after which I may choose to treat them as green if they're 1- or 2-speed? Or does the droid allow me to treat them as green first, after which they're changed to red anyway?
 
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haslo wrote:
marstiller wrote:
karrde wrote:
ArcticSnake wrote:

1. The damage card only changes all turn maneuvers (the 90 degree maneuver - the banks and straights are not affected) to red

2. The droid effect only changes all speed 1 and speed 2 maneuvers (i think, i don't have the cards in front of me - please correct me if i am wrong) to green

These are both correct, but here's the actual text:

Treat all turn maneuvers ([left turn] or [right turn]) as red maneuvers.

You may treat all 1- and 2-speed maneuvers as green maneuvers.

So there's no mention of "white" arrows on the damage card (guess who hasn't received his copy of the game yet)?

If not then I'd have to change my opinion and say the damage overrides the ability and all turn maneuvers would be red.

Thanks for the text, karrde

I don't think it's clear with the full text, no. It's still a question of timing: Does the damage card change the turns to red first, after which I may choose to treat them as green if they're 1- or 2-speed? Or does the droid allow me to treat them as green first, after which they're changed to red anyway?


I feel like the droid ability is similar to an ongoing ability and would therefore be first in the chain so the droid changes the arrows to green but then the damage comes in and takes them to red (same reason I felt the opposite was true when I thought the damage card specified "white" arrows - droid changes them to green and then the damage comes in and has no effect because the arrows aren't white, they're green).

Also, I'm usually wrong with these things but now that I've flip-flopped I know I was right at least once (so this is what it feels like to be a politician?).
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To counter this thinking (and more just to play devil's advocate), the ruling on chaining Swarm Tactics if more than one pilot had it was that they could be done in any order.

So one could argue both of these effects are going at the same time and that it is up to the player how they resolve. And of course, he would most likely make the R2 unit take precedence.

I really think this just needs official final ruling. Because we really aren't going to resolve it through debate.
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Kelly Overholser
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Why can't the arrows be both green and red?

If the pilot has no stress token, a token gets added from the red part of the arrow, then removed immediately from the green part.

if the pilot has a stress token, the maneuver can't be chosen because it's red.
 
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The Man
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Sethala wrote:
Why can't the arrows be both green and red?

If the pilot has no stress token, a token gets added from the red part of the arrow, then removed immediately from the green part.

if the pilot has a stress token, the maneuver can't be chosen because it's red.


What is stopping a stressed pilot from choosing a red manoevure, and becoming even more stressed?
 
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conedguy wrote:

What is stopping a stressed pilot from choosing a red manoevure, and becoming even more stressed?


Pg 16 of the rules:

Quote:
If a ship already has a stress token assigned to it and it reveals a red maneuver during the Activation phase, the opposing player chooses any non-red maneuver on that ship’s dial for the ship to execute.
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