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7 Wonders: Catan» Forums » Rules

Subject: Secret Warehouse - Catan Base Power Combo? rss

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Kevin Barefoot
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So my gaming group just acquired the Catan board and the Cities expansion. Can you combo the Secret Warehouse card (which produces a resource of the player's choice from among those that their city already produces through its brown and gray cards) with the base power of the Catan board (porting 2 of the same resource for a different resource)?
 
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Kenneth Stuart
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I would say yes. Remember though, both abilities are once per turn.
 
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Andrew Rowse
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The Cities rulebook says this:
Quote:
Each turn, the card produces a resource of the
player’s choice from among those that their
city already produces through its brown and
gray cards or the initial resource of their board.
Clarification : the Secret Warehouse doesn’t
allow players to double the production on yellow,
white, or black cards (Forum, Caravansary,
Bilkis and Black Market).


Catan's ability is yellow, not brown/grey, so I would not expect it to combo with Secret Warehouse.

Although the rulebook also mentions 'or the initial resource', Catan's port is not a resource.

Which is just as well, otherwise the Black Market would be rubbish for Catan!
 
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Kenneth Stuart
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Its not doubling catan's ability, but rather doubling a resource and then feeding that into catan's ability to get a different resource. Essentially, having the card allows you to convert any unused resource into whatever resource you want. That is a little powerful, but it works according to the rules.
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Andrew Rowse
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Ah, yes - of course. Catan converts resources, and doesn't care where they come from.
 
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M. B. Downey
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KAndrw wrote:
Ah, yes - of course. Catan converts resources, and doesn't care where they come from.


Yes it does. You can't use non brown/grey cards like the Caravansary or Forum to help feed Catan's abilities; you cannot use resources you buy from others, either.
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Andrew Rowse
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downeymb wrote:
KAndrw wrote:
Ah, yes - of course. Catan converts resources, and doesn't care where they come from.


Yes it does. You can't use non brown/grey cards like the Caravansary or Forum to help feed Catan's abilities; you cannot use resources you buy from others, either.


That's a literal reading of a badly-written rule, and I haven't been able to find official confirmation of it either way.

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1350645/7-wonders-catan-islan...

"Once per round, players may use two identical resources which they produce (brown or gray cards), in order to receive a (brown or gray) resource of their choice."

To me, the stuff in parentheses is clarification, telling the reader that 'resources' includes both raw materials and manufactured goods. It cannot be intended to suggest that the resources are only allowed to come from brown or grey cards, because that would mean that the resources could only ever come from brown cards. There are only three differently named grey cards - one for each manufactured good - and you're not allowed to have more than one copy of a card.

The fact that the power refers to converting grey resources suggests that a literal reading of the 'cards' clarification is incorrect.

A case could be made that 'produce' should be taken literally, preventing the player from using resources acquired via commerce. Since 'produce' is part of the main text rather than parenthesised, and since the power isn't cripled by that interpretation, I would lean towards agreeing - ie, Catan's power only lets you convert resources produced by the cards you control.
 
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Kenneth Stuart
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KAndrew makes a good point. If you could only use YOUR resource cards, you'd never be able to trade manufactured goods, so the art on Catan's starting resource would be incorrect.

House rules seem to be necessary here, though I think the wonder meant to take any resource you have available, likely INCLUDING through commerce.

If you didn't have commerce, there would be no need to convert 2:1 gray cards because you'd have to use the forum and a card, in which case why not just use the forum.
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M. B. Downey
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This has been discussed already. You can house rule it if you want to, but as written, it says cards. Poorly written or not, that's what the rule says.

So yes, as of right now it is impossible, to convert manufactured resources. Who knows what expansions, if any, will change this.

Keep in mind that this is a promotional wonder and is not expected to function as normal, so the fact that the rules make it impossible to do something on the card doesn't mean that's not how it was intended. It's not like Mannekin Pis comes with a beer.
 
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Andrew Rowse
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downeymb wrote:
This has been discussed already. You can house rule it if you want to, but as written, it says cards. Poorly written or not, that's what the rule says.




You say house rule, I say clear intention.

If a road sign says 'no parking cars will be clamped' (as a sign near my house says!), it's pretty obvious that the literal interpretation is the result of limited English skills, and it's even more obvious that it's not a good place to park despite the sign's promise that your parked car will be immune to clamping!

Promotional item or not, it is highly unlikely that Catan's ability would be designed so that the commodity conversion was not usable with the base game or the first two expansions - so the only sensible thing to do is to find an interpretation that fits the intention of the wonder.

(Also, the Mannekin Pis player is entitled to have the winner of the game buy him a beer - not expect it from the game!)
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Kenneth Stuart
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downeymb wrote:
This has been discussed already. You can house rule it if you want to, but as written, it says cards. Poorly written or not, that's what the rule says.


"Poorly written or not"

If I went by this logic, I would never play a Zman games, Fantasy Flight Game, or numerous other games ever again in my life!
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Kenneth Stuart
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KAndrw wrote:
downeymb wrote:
This has been discussed already. You can house rule it if you want to, but as written, it says cards. Poorly written or not, that's what the rule says.




You say house rule, I say clear intention.


By house rule, I meant to say "house rule that agrees Repos doesn't know how to write rules properly"

The intent of this wonder is clear as day, otherwise they would have used different symbols. Either that or their symbols are complete garbage, in which case all of the game is garbage.
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Chad Miller
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KAndrw wrote:
That's a literal reading of a badly-written rule, and I haven't been able to find official confirmation of it either way.


As of now it's actually very clearly spelled out in the Cities rulebook.
 
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Andrew Rowse
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SlebRittie wrote:
KAndrw wrote:
That's a literal reading of a badly-written rule, and I haven't been able to find official confirmation of it either way.


As of now it's actually very clearly spelled out in the Cities rulebook.


Come on, dude. Could you at least provide a page reference to support your claim?

If you're meaning the clarifications on the Black Market and Secret Warehouse, I don't think there's anything to indicate that the clarifications are generic to the brown/grey icon. Indeed, the way that the icon is used in Leaders has nothing to do with limiting it to brown/grey cards.

I maintain that since the 'brown/grey cards only' interpretation for Catan makes half of Catan's ability unusable, that interpretation cannot be correct. There's nothing in the Cities rules to contradict this.
 
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Chad Miller
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The iconography is literally identical to the Secret Warehouse and Black Market cards, so the sensible default is that it works the same. wrt the grey cards concern, "I don't like the implications of this rule, so I'm going to treat it like it works differently" is literally what houseruling is.
 
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Chad Miller
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Also, there's now this: www.boardgamegeek.com/article/9963247#9963247
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Andrew Rowse
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My stance was not 'I don't like the implications', it was 'this scenario seems very unlikely'. The iconography is also identical to the resource discount leaders, on which the concept of resource origin is irrelevant.

That said, it's great that there's been official (albeit second hand) confirmation. Thank you for the link!
 
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