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War of the Ring (First Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can Dead Men of Dunharrow kill off minions rss

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Steve White
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Scenario: I played "Dead Men of Dunharrow", moving Strider with an army from Rohan to Pelagir, which was occupied by a really small shadow army (3 "units" i.e. regulars) with the Witch King. The die roll killed all 3 and we also removed the Witch King.

Was this correct, or can he only be killed in battle, not by combat card effect? (Or, rather, not by this specific combat card effect.)

My wife was playing Shadow and didn't question it (she trusts my reading of the rules, hence I usually win), but I've been feeling guilty about it ever since.
 
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Phil Craig
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The battle is instigated by a card, but it's still a battle. The minion dies as in any other combat.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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Rage of the Ents works by a very similar mechanic, and explicitly states that Saruman is removed after no armies remain. So do you think that is a lemma or an exception to the rest of the rules?

Additionally, I see no supporting evidence that the card triggers a "battle", therefore it is unclear to me that minions are vulnerable.

However, given the principle that he game designers will usually rule the opposite of whatever the existing textual evidence favors, I agree with your conclusion: the Witch King is toast.

 
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Sean McCarthy
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I think that it's not implicit in the card text that the WK would die, but I also think that this doesn't tell us anything, because the card has so much text that you can't fit everything on it anyway.

(Note that the ent cards also HAVE to have the special text so that they can kill Saruman even if there were no units there in the first place, so that comparison doesn't tell us anything.)
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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Good point.

I'm also coming around to great-grand-parent's view that since the only rules passage available that tells us how to resolve "hits" also contains rules for elimination of leaders, and is in the "Battle Resolution" section of the rules, that yes, this is a battle for purposes of "removing casualties", and since leader death is a property of removing casualties, the WK is toast.

Everyone agrees that a WK gone wenching in Pelargir without any armies is completely immune to the Dead Men, right?
 
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Bruce Sturrock
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Yeah I agree that the Witch King dies if he's with troops but not if he's alone. Think of it that the Ent's know where Saurman is - he never leaves Orthanc. The Witch King on seeing the undead ships is able to fly off to a safer area in the same region!

But then again Steve should still feel guilty as he's such a lucky, lucky roller of those sixes - it's all in the wrist action isn't it Steve?

B
 
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Jeff Long
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I too am interested in this exact same question (though also wondering if it kills off Nazghul as well).

Veldrin's FAQ gives two contradictory pieces of evidence, and no direct answer. It states that cards like Spirit of Mordor, Faramir's Rangers and (I believe) Dreadful Spells specifically do NOT kill Minions/Nazghul/Companions, "because the army was not eliminated in battle."

But under "Dead Men of Dunharrow," the FAQ states that if the army is unable to retreat (as the card mandates), the survivors are killed along with any minions or Nazghul. If the army is wiped out by the die roll, it technically can't RETREAT, so does this condition kick in?

I gave my opponent the benefit of a doubt and let her keep her Nazghul, as I won by a landslide anyway. But I'd still be interested in an official ruling.
 
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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If the army is destroyed the Minions are eliminated.

There is an answer in the FAQ that tells you this, even though the question is slightly different:

Q 'Dead Men of Dunharrow' - What happens if the Shadow army attacked has no adjacent Free Region and is therefore unable to retreat?

A If unable to retreat the entire army, including all Nazgûl and Minions present, is destroyed.
 
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Jeff Long
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Thank you, Mr. Bengtsson. That is indeed the answer I read - I think it would be clearer though if you specifically included the case where the die roll wipes out the army in the FAQ. As I said, the answers to similar questions on Spirit of Mordor and Faramir's Rangers create some confusion and discrepancy with this card.
 
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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This is now in the FAQ.
 
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