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Subject: Question about the Secret Warehouse and Age I double resources rss

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Antoine Bauza
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Hello guys,

I'm not sure I understood the issue here (bad english, sorry).
Can you rephrase / explain clearly and I'll try to answer !
(I subscribed to the thread...)

Antoine
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Nikolai
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toinito wrote:

I'm not sure I understood the issue here (bad english, sorry).
Can you rephrase / explain clearly and I'll try to answer !
(I subscribed to the thread...)

Thanks a lot for chiming in!

The question is what exactly "produce" / "produit" means in the rules for Secret Warehouse (Entrepôt Secret), Black Market (Marché Noir) and the 4th wonder stage of The Great Wall B.
It is in doubt with regards to the brown either-or-cards (Tree Farm, Excavation, Clay Pit, Timber Yard, Forest Cave and Mine).

I think that "produce" should be interpreted in the same way for Secret Warehouse on the one hand and Black Market / Great Wall B on the other hand:
According to p. 12 of the base game rules, in each turn, you decide which of the two resources the brown either-or-cards produce. I would say this is the resource that Secret Warehouse can double and Black Market / Great Wall B can produce *the other one* (because the brown card doesn't produce it this turn).

Alternatively, one *might* say that the word "produce" in the rules actually refers to the production *potential* of the brown either-or-cards, in which case Secret Warehouse could produce both clay or ore and Black Market / Great Wall B can produce *neither* regardless of what the brown card actually produces this turn.

In your private message to Reid666, but seemed to choose neither of these two options, but one which seemed to be illogical to me:
You seemed to say that "produce" means "actually produce" for Secret Warehouse, but for Black Market, it refers to the "production potential" instead.

Let's look at an example:

Let's say I have a Clay Pit, which can produce clay or ore and I have no other brown cards or brown resource as the initial resource of my wonder board. Let's say I let the Clay Pit produce clay on a particular turn.
Then I would say this implies that on this turn,
- Secret Warehouse can produce clay, but not ore and that
- Black Market / Great Wall B *can* produce ore, but not clay.

Do you agree? In case you disagree, how is your ruling in accordance with the printed rules? Thanks a lot for your answer!
 
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Antoine Bauza
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Ok, so...

Secret Warehouse & Black Market depend of your resource icons present on your "board"

So if you have a STONE or CLAY brown card (and nothing else) :
- SW can produce either a STONE or a CLAY
- BM can't produce neither a Stone or a CLAY (none of them)

SW & BM don't depend on the use you make of the resources on turn T, it depend on what resource are present on your brown cards.

Maybe I made a mistake in the message for Reid, sorry if i did !

Antoine
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Canadian Home Gamer
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toinito wrote:
Ok, so...

Secret Warehouse & Black Market depend of your resource icons present on your "board"

So if you have a STONE or CLAY brown card (and nothing else) :
- SW can produce either a STONE or a CLAY
- BM can't produce neither a Stone or a CLAY (none of them)

SW & BM don't depend on the use you make of the resources on turn T, it depend on what resource are present on your brown cards.

Maybe I made a mistake in the message for Reid, sorry if i did !

Antoine

Okay, I am going to try and reword to make sure I understand.

So if I have an STONE or CLAY brown card (and nothing else) plus the Secret Warehouse I could produce (any of the below options):
- Two STONE
- One STONE and one CLAY
- Two CLAY

If I have an STONE or CLAY brown card (and nothing else) plus the Black MarketI could produce (any of the below options):
- STONE + "Anything but STONE or CLAY"
- CLAY + "Anything but STONE or CLAY"

Is this correct? If so, this means that the SW doesn't necessarily have to "double" a resource; this would match the description in the rules (never uses the word double) but is counterintuitive from the symbol.
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Antoine Bauza
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Nikolai
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toinito wrote:

Secret Warehouse & Black Market depend of your resource icons present on your "board"

So if you have a STONE or CLAY brown card (and nothing else) :
- SW can produce either a STONE or a CLAY
- BM can't produce neither a Stone or a CLAY (none of them)

SW & BM don't depend on the use you make of the resources on turn T, it depend on what resource are present on your brown cards.

Maybe I made a mistake in the message for Reid, sorry if i did !

OK, thanks a lot for clarifying that!
So "produce" actually refers to the production *potential* (the icons present on the cards) in all cases.
This answer is indeed different from the one Reid666 reported before (*click*), so I think it was very good that you posted it.

The new ruling is consistent and thus makes sense, I'll happily use it in my games from now on!
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Canadian Home Gamer wrote:
toinito wrote:
Ok, so...

Secret Warehouse & Black Market depend of your resource icons present on your "board"

So if you have a STONE or CLAY brown card (and nothing else) :
- SW can produce either a STONE or a CLAY
- BM can't produce neither a Stone or a CLAY (none of them)

SW & BM don't depend on the use you make of the resources on turn T, it depend on what resource are present on your brown cards.

Maybe I made a mistake in the message for Reid, sorry if i did !

Antoine

Okay, I am going to try and reword to make sure I understand.

So if I have an STONE or CLAY brown card (and nothing else) plus the Secret Warehouse I could produce (any of the below options):
- Two STONE
- One STONE and one CLAY
- Two CLAY

If I have an STONE or CLAY brown card (and nothing else) plus the Black MarketI could produce (any of the below options):
- STONE + "Anything but STONE or CLAY"
- CLAY + "Anything but STONE or CLAY"

Is this correct? If so, this means that the SW doesn't necessarily have to "double" a resource; this would match the description in the rules (never uses the word double) but is counterintuitive from the symbol.

WHOAH this is mind blowing!

So secret warehouse was never a doubler, but just "you can produce one more resource of one resource you can produce from browns or grays".

That is SO much stronger than "double what you picked to produce", specifically for dual brown cards in age I.

A weak example would be having Timber Yard (Stone/Wood) and Clay Pit (Brick/Ore) and a Secret Warehouse. If you assumed "doubler" you can't build a Stables (Brick, Wood, Ore) with just these three cards for resource production [without trading, babel tile, or free chain], but with this interpretation, you can!

A Palace would be a better example since people actively fish for that card instead of a Stables. There's actually VERY few cards that use 3 different raw resources (Stables, Senate, Gamers Guild, Workers Guild, Palace to name a few). Even wonders don't use 3 or more different raw resources other than Roma A's 1st stage or Mannekin Pis B.


I guess it doesn't help that the English rulebook literally has the word "double" on it, so it's easy to think the iconography meant that.

But if Secret Warehouse actually makes it possible to use both sides of a dual age I brown, that's HUGE (and expensive on coins which is why secret + 2 duals isn't that common).

Because there are so few cards that use more than 3 raw resouces, in a way Secret Warehouse was intended to bolster your resource production at a cost (2 coins), so balance-wise this doesn't break anything. In fact, it makes more sense. People usually played Secret Warehouse where it indirectly forces them to draft browns to make sure you can use the full effect of "doubling" but being able to use BOTH sides of a dual means you DON'T need so many browns.


I think I need to draft Secret Warehouse much more now!


EDIT: This is HUGE for wonders, specifically all the non original 7 wonders ones!

The Secret Warehouse was really clear in its benefit for the original 7 wonders because nearly ALL of the stages used double raw resources. However, suddenly new things come to light!

1) Stonehenge A can do its 1st stage with just a Clay Pit and a Secret Warehouse.

Strategically this lets the other 4 picks to get a Gray or a Wood, a military (or 2) and/or science (via Gray) and be in perfect position to grab a Caravansary and/or a Forum with less investment.

2) Abu Simbel A can actually do its first 2 wonder stages with just secret warehouse, excavation, and forest cave. This is a bad example because you can just use a Timber Yard and a Clay Pit and not even require the secret warehouse ....

Point is, now you can just use Excavation and not have to obtain a Brick for the wonder tech.

Fun fact: Abu Simbel A's first two stages are the exact same resource cost as the Mannekin Pis Promo.

3) Same idea applies for the City wonders.
Byzantium A -> Secret Warehouse + Clay Pit
Petra A -> Secret Warehouse + Timber Yard

Clay Pit and Timber Yard are the 2 duals in a 3 player game, so nearly any game could have this possibility.


Interesting to note that there are no wonders that use a "Stone + Ore" as the first stage. Same can be said about "Wood + Brick". Anyone who knows their card distribution will notice that both the Mine and the Tree Farm are 6+ player duals and rarely show up.


Well, we already know Secret Warehouse was intended to give extra reach, and also to destroy situations where you're locked out of resources. For example: a 4 player game where you're Halikarnassus B, your opponent across from you drafts Clay Pit, and neither of your neighbors get an Ore Vein. Without Secret Warehouse (or Bilkis/Imhotep) you literally cannot tech in age I.

Unfortunately this little trick doesn't help on more resource intensive situations like a Circus.

It does extend your reach for situations where you need two or more different raw resources. That would mean Guilds like Courtesan's Guild.

This becomes even more interesting if you have a Bilkis/Imhotep or some trade advantage. Quite relevant to save on 1-2 trades just from this little extra reach if you think about it! Only applies if you actually have a dual age I brown though.

Again the high initial cost will make a dual + secret warehouse not common in the first place. The strength of each card would usually lead the picks to be spread among the players.
 
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Greg C
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Also unclear for me, can the Secret Warehouse be used to produce resources produced by a wonder stage (not the starting resource on the board)?

For example, when I play Alexandria, after building Wonder stage 1 and 2, can my Secret Warehouse produce one of anything, even if I have no other brown or gray cards?
 
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Nikolai
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herrgregthe1st wrote:
Also unclear for me, can the Secret Warehouse be used to produce resources produced by a wonder stage (not the starting resource on the board)?

For example, when I play Alexandria, after building Wonder stage 1 and 2, can my Secret Warehouse produce one of anything, even if I have no other brown or gray cards?

I would say the rules are completely clear on that:

Rules for Secret Warehouse on p. 7 of Cities rulebook wrote:

Each turn, the card produces a resource of the player’s choice from among those that their city already produces through its brown and gray cards or the initial resource of their board.

A wonder stage is neither a brown card nor a gray card nor the initial resource of a board, so no, Secret Warehouse can't benefit from Alexandria's wonder stages.
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