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Subject: Why Agricola is a waste of money... rss

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Benjamin Kerenza
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bluearmenian wrote:
I usually a war gamer at heart but I saw how popular this game was

I don't understand why people do this and are then surprised they don't like stuff. I don't get the opportunity to add games to my collection very often (people with high disposable incomes count yourselves lucky) so when I do I make sure I am likely to enjoy the games I do get.

Which is one of the reasons this review is valuable.[not entirely serious]If any war-gamers come along thinking wow this game has a good rating at least they'll read through the first fifty or so posts and realise that this game is not for them[/not entirely serious]

bluearmenian wrote:
Agricola always felt like it's over before it started. It feels like you're just getting your stuff together and it's over.

I do think this is an important part of the play, but a lot of people don't get it. I think it would be more anti-climactic to have three extra rounds with the engines on full throttle and it dragging and loosing a lot of tension towards the end. Not that I've tried and don't plan to.

bluearmenian wrote:
It's also so tidious to explain all the small rules to people. I find this one of them most exhausting games to explain to new people.

This I agree with, but I think I love games with plenty of largely intuitive rules even when they aren't thematic and I put my difficulty in explanation mostly down to my inability to structure what I tell people and the fact there is a lot to know almost straight away.
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Jade Youngblood
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Sorry to hear you wasted your money.

Agricola is very successful for me and surprisingly easy to teach.

I always teach games backwards. I begin from the end and finish at the start so we can begin there. I have never had an issue teaching the biggest noobs how to play.

Two most important tips
Tell me to seek out variety in scoring, specializing is bad.
Never let your family starve, ever.

With those two tips noobs have a good idea of how to go about the game.

The rest is explaining each of the 14 action cards.

Then you just take the plunge. After the first harvest or two, they "get" it.

I also assume that your negative attitude toward the game doesn't help the noobs as they likely pick up on your negativity.

Luckily there are some 60 000 games on BGG so if agricola aint for you, you have plenty of alternatives.

My opinion of it is that it is a masterpiece.

Happy gaming
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Chris Dippel
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galathonredd wrote:
Does the OP deserve to be thrown under the bus because he does not? Hell no.

This isn't really a fair analogy.

No one is throwing him under the bus. He posted a negative review about a VERY popular board game on a site where that game was rated by nearly 25,000 people, and came out #2 out of 60k+ games.

It's a bit more like he jumped in front of the bus, and now people are giving him a Darwin award.

I understand if he didn't like it, and that's great. I'm not defending the game, but I think this response is EXACTLY what he was looking for, and he's sitting back with the biggest bowl of popcorn.

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Moe45673
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I can't say I agree with the OP. Or disagree. I've never played Agricola. However, I did want an excellent euro engine builder and bought Through the Ages. OP, you may want to look into it.

Why I bought it:
- The complaint how Agricola ends as soon as it gets interesting bothered me (not the first time I heard it). Folks who like the game stated that the game was still great in spite of this, but I couldn't get my head around it. TtA gets interesting in Age 3, which is a whole freaking age. I haven't even played with war/aggression cards yet!

- Theme. I don't mind the farming theme. But the Civ theme is more appealing. Also, this game isn't really like building a farm.

- Cost. No way I would buy "Gric" when I couldn't possibly purchase it without the Mayday or Goodies pack. That's pushing 80 bucks. TtA was 50.

Only downside is Agricola is easier to break out with noobs. Still, wasn't enough for me. Not saying it's bad by any means, but I get a solid engine building fix with TtA
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Michael J
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alenen wrote:
I often wonder why there are so few negative reviews of games on BGG.. now I understand why.

Agricolytes indeed...

I think it is because it takes a lot of time and energy to write a good review, and people are more likely to put in the hour or two it takes if they are enthusiastic about a game. You will rarely see me spend any time on a game I don't like. I cut my losses and run if I don't like something and move on to something I like better. I've written a couple of negative reviews, but only do so if I find something flawed in the game that I can justify as something other than pure preference. With that said, I find little in this review other than pure personal preference. He does not like the theme ("Some people love it, a farmer with his wife and kids. Lame. I couldn't get over how boring the theme is."). He thinks the rules are too hard. He doesn't find motivation to build a farm and fill it with animals. He certainly is allowed to have those opinions, but as a review I find those kinds of statements to be unhelpful and more deserving of being a Genral post and not a review, so I can see why people have jumped all over him. Folks on BGG are pretty demanding when it comes to reviews and session reports, less so for other posts. But one thing that always generates heated responses is when you claim something is a fact when it really is just personal preference. You should have seen the sh*t storm I unleashed when I wrote a less than stellar review of Settlers of Catan. Yikes!

Personally, I like Agricola. I like building my farm and watching it grow, and like the sense of accomplishment when my farm is complete. I think the game is tense, full of tactical blocking, and has many clever elements. I don't love the volumes of occupation and improvement cards, but that's just my opinion.
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Philip Pack
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I love the game. It is a steep learning curve, and you likely won't score very well your first time thru, because there's lots to learn\remember... but they do all make thematic sense and are easy to remember for your future plays... all are obvious objectives to be successful in your farm life (like collecting wood, to build a fence, to keep your animals.)

Only thing I can think not to like about the game... is the cards... so many unique cards to read and learn. In the 10+ games I've played, we've still only used the "Basic" (E) deck. And when you play with gamers like my brother, they'll take for ever to read every detail of every card, and really can slow down the game.

Overall, the theme fits the game mechanics just perfectly. Yeah it may not be the theme for you, but some people don't like war games, or sci-fi games, or fantasy games... and some times the theme may not even matter, and it really comes down enjoyable game mechanics. But... don't let that (or others) stop you from giving your opinion... even if we don't agree with it.
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Horrid Beast wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
Well... if you dislike the theme so much, why did you buy it in the first place? Apparently theme is a big deal to you, and you know about the theme before you even open the box.

The OP said he bought it because of all the hype on BGG. So cut him some slack. Some games I have bought or nearly purchased because of positive reviews here on the Geek have been disappointments too. We all tick a bit differently.

Use Geekbuddies.

Find people with similar tastes in games as you. Geekbuddy them.

Use Geekbuddy Analyis of games (it's in the Statistics module on every game page). That will show you what people you have handpicked because of their opinion on other games think of game X.

It really is an excellent tool once you have found a few geekbuddies.

You can even categorise your Geekbuddies into different groups and analyse them separately.
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Horrid Beast wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
Well... if you dislike the theme so much, why did you buy it in the first place? Apparently theme is a big deal to you, and you know about the theme before you even open the box.

The OP said he bought it because of all the hype on BGG. So cut him some slack. Some games I have bought or nearly purchased because of positive reviews here on the Geek have been disappointments too. We all tick a bit differently.

Okay, setting aside the OP and his review for a bit - I just don't see why this still happens.

Rulebooks are generally available either here or on their publisher's pages. More and more these days you can watch videos that illustrate exactly how a game is played. I've yet to see a modern, popular game without informative reviews that tell you what the game-play is (and also is not) like.

So along with the hype, there is more than enough information to tell people that this super-duper latest and greatest just won't scratch their itch (this is how I know that I won't much care for Power Grid or Le Havre or Brass, for example). Why would anyone buy a game that they had not thoroughly researched just because it is rated highly here?
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Ben Green
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freddieyu wrote:
The thing I see here is that despite you NOT liking it, you tried to explain and teach it to other people. No wonder only 1 of the 8 only liked it. People can see through your distaste of it, and that's usually an autofail. If the game was taught by someone who DOES love it and gets the nuances and understands the challenges and joy of playing it, then I betcha most will like it.

So true. Never try to teach a game you don't like yourself. Your dislike of the game will poison it for others.
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Enrico Viglino
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CunningAllusionment wrote:


So true. Never try to teach a game you don't like yourself. Your dislike of the game will poison it for others.

I've seen so many making this point - and I disagree completely.
I've taught games I dislike quite often - and very often had
people like them far more than I do.

The key is probably not to ruin their experience with your tastes.
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Benjamin Kerenza
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Horrid Beast wrote:
Excellent point but sometimes we can impulse buy. I've done it before and my wife does it everyday lol...

True, but when I impulse buy it is £1.50 Scotland Yard from a charity shop, not £55 euro megalith.

Again I don't buy a lot of games so I have a good idea of a range of games I might want to purchase that I have a fair chance of liking and playing. It just niggles me that someone would be so wasteful in their game purchases, and then complain about it.
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Andrew Foerster
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Uh oh, watch the Agricolytes descend...

bigGameGeek wrote:
There are alot of rules but try approaching it with the attitude that alot of the rules are very thematic

i.e. 1 - you can't sow if you dont have stuff to plant. 2-you can't house animals if you dont have the fences. 3-you can't expand if you don't have the room. They all make sense to me......

And a lot are un-thematic and nonsensical. Including your (3), poor families without birth control routinely pop out more kids and stack 'em into the same small house with the rest of the kids. Plus:

"Darn, Billy Bob is in the forest chopping wood, we'll have to freeze, dear."

"2 sheep have 1 baby." Makes sense.
"10 sheep have 1 baby?" That's a bit odd.
"100 sheep can only have 1 baby!" What the?

Your distaste for Agricola has always been puzzling to me, given your taste for other games (in which it doesn't seem like thematic integration matters much, etc.), and it's always felt maybe you're being a bit of a contrarian?
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Robert Zaleski
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galathonredd wrote:
Do I like Agricola? Hell yes.
Does the OP deserve to be thrown under the bus because he does not? Hell no.
Did he state clearly why he didn't like the game? Yes - that's what constitutes a good review.
This is why I discontinued [geeklist=64062]my review series[/geeklist]. I got tired of being put under fire every time I gave a negative review

Issue I have with the review is not that he doesn't like it. It's just something completely different from what he likes. He does state that to his credit.

I guess by that reasoning I should go out and play every single stupid game I know I won't like, and write reviews about how horrible they are. That's my opinion, but I think it helps Zero people. Now, if I thought I'd like a game, played it, and found a few things that ruined it, that would be worth posting since others who were interested for the same reasons I was may see what I didn't like.

But posting a review on why ASL sucks from me helps no one. But a review from the reviewer would probably be useful.
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Butterfly0038 wrote:
does anyone want some of my popcorn...

Yes please.
 
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Enrico Viglino
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rzaleski wrote:


Issue I have with the review is not that he doesn't like it. It's just something completely different from what he likes. He does state that to his credit.

I guess by that reasoning I should go out and play every single stupid game I know I won't like, and write reviews about how horrible they are. That's my opinion, but I think it helps Zero people. Now, if I thought I'd like a game, played it, and found a few things that ruined it, that would be worth posting since others who were interested for the same reasons I was may see what I didn't like.

But posting a review on why ASLsucks from me helps noone. But a review from the reviewer would probably be useful.

I disagree. Getting personal opinions is very valuable, so long as
they give the 'why'. There are many people out there who are clever
enough to distill what they want from such information, even if they
don't agree with the reviewer. The flaw with this coverage is that
he doesn't give enough. But the criticism leveled is fair and useful.
Given that it's expressed rapidly, without being buried in some big
walls of text looking at every other issue may actually be a positive
though.

The dislike of theme does little. One probably knows the theme already.
But, he highlights a common (but not ubiquitous) eurogame problem
of feeling that it's over right away. So, for something I could absorb
in a glance, I got a strong negative factor. That's better than most
reviews manage.

For much the same reason as the OP picked the game up, I too probably
shall. But, this gives me an additional disincentive.
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Robert Zaleski
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How is the criticism useful? If you don't like farming you won't like the game? Hardly.

I think the genres are far too different. There's at least 4 different types of games I've seen on this site, and they tend to have some overlap in both people and games, but they are different. Hardcore WarGamers/Combat Simulations are very different from Strategic Euros. So a War Gamer saying he doesn't like a Strategic Euro (I'm differing this from causal Euro like TTR or Settlers) helps no one since I don't think it'll hold for anyone else.

Think of it like food, say we both like Burgers and Fries and here about an Indian Place down the street. The food is way too different for either of us to know we'll like it unless we try it before. And neither of us would really be qualified to say whether it's good or bad Indian food. All we can say for sure is we didn't like that restaurant, and start building reasons we don't like Indian food. If another friend says that Indian restaurant sucks, you should try this other one, it may be worth a try, but if again we don't like it I think we'd know we don't like Indian food. Doesn't mean everyone who likes Burger and Fries will hate Indian food though.

Now discussing in a forum whether or not someone should try strategic Euros is a whole nother thing. Describing what both are like and how they differ, and getting a feel for whether or not it's worth trying is useful. Knowing I hate spicy food like Mexican may make me strongly avoid trying Indian food. But that's really mapping my preferences to they type and trying to decide if it's worth trying.

So I really see no use to the review. I'm glad the author tried a Strategic Euro. I'm glad he's clear that he doesn't like it and why. Just not his boat then, fine, sorry he wasted his time and some money. I hope he'll MT it for something he likes.

I know what games I can't stand and I stay away from them, but writing negative reviews on them isn't going to change the fact that different people have different preferences and like them alot. I mean would it help for me to write negative reviews on all the Carc variants I've tried and dislike? Reallly?
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rzaleski wrote:
So a War Gamer saying he doesn't like a Strategic Euro (I'm differing this from causal Euro like TTR or Settlers) helps no one since I don't think it'll hold for anyone else.
While I agree, the thing is though... he says he likes Power Grid. So he does like SOME strategic euros, even "dry-themed" ones.

bluearemenian in OP wrote:
Theme: Can't stand it. Some people love it, a farmer with his wife and kids. Lame. I couldn't get over how boring the theme is...I'm just not a fan of this game, and the theme to me killed it.

So really it mostly seems to come down to the specific theme rather than the type of game... a theme he knew about well in advance.
If he wants to buy it despite that, that's his decision, but then writing a review driven by how you hated the theme just then seems a bit weird.
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Robert Zaleski
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Well, Power Grid is way different from Agricola. They are in the same category, but one is more Economic and Bidding while another is Worker placement. You're right, he might like Medici, Age of Steam, or Princes of Florence, and could possibly hate Caylus, Puerto Rico and Le Havre.

But understanding what he likes and why is the bigger factor I think. Unfortunately I don't think there's enough there, but I'll admit I was trolling a bit and just thought the discussion could be focused in a different direction.

We all tend to get protective of Reviews of games we love.

I still don't think the place for that discussion is a Review. Maybe in a forum, and I find the "Would I like" discussions much more interesting.
 
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Well I completely agree with the OP on this one. The game is a total waste of time. I in fact have wasted nearly 200 game plays of time on this one...I wasted 2 plays back to back just the other night...can't wait to waste more time on it in the future.

cool
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Geoff Burkman
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And I think we have to admit that the OP dropped a tasty bit of chum into the waters here.whistle
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Michelle Sim
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Agricola may be a waste of your money but it is most certainly money well spent for many of us. Or in my case, it was possibly one of the best board game birthday present that hubby & I ever received from my buddy whom I have known since we were 5 yrs old kindergarten classmates.

C'mon, Agicola won't be ranked TOP 2 if it was as bad as you made out to be.
The cute family friendly farming theme, the pretty farms of each players and the high replayability are some of the plus points that make this game ticks.

One man's poison may be another man's meat. Pls do us a favour, do not attempt to teach any games that you don't enjoy cos chances are you will make the other players' learning experience a very lousy one and caused them to have negative vibes about Agricola.

Pls pardon me for being frank.
Just my 2 cents of honest feedback here.

Good luck with your other games.
Hope u will find other games which you will enjoy more.

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Enrico Viglino
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rzaleski wrote:
How is the criticism useful? If you don't like farming you won't like the game? Hardly.

Try reading the post. Out of two points raised, that's the one
I singled out as not useful.

Quote:
I think the genres are far too different. There's at least 4 different types of games I've seen on this site, and they tend to have some overlap in both people and games, but they are different. Hardcore WarGamers/Combat Simulations are very different from Strategic Euros. So a War Gamer saying he doesn't like a Strategic Euro (I'm differing this from causal Euro like TTR or Settlers) helps no one since I don't think it'll hold for anyone else.

There are a lot of cross-over gamers. I'm one. I (and it seems the OP)
don't dislike all euros. There are some I really do like. I surmise
the same for him, from his statements. It is quite helpful to be
warned away from the ones which don't work well outside their genre.
Unlike say, Case Blue, which few non-wargamers would attempt based
upon obvious issues with size of rules and length, just what euros
carry well to those who can't abide by gamey rules which don't translate
to reality isn't clear without looking at more than the components. It's
good to hear from those who do.

Quote:
Think of it like food, say we both like Burgers and Fries and here about an Indian Place down the street. The food is way too different for either of us to know we'll like it unless we try it before. And neither of us would really be qualified to say whether it's good or bad Indian food. All we can say for sure is we didn't like that restaurant, and start building reasons we don't like Indian food. If another friend says that Indian restaurant sucks, you should try this other one, it may be worth a try, but if again we don't like it I think we'd know we don't like Indian food. Doesn't mean everyone who likes Burger and Fries will hate Indian food though.

Right. But if you say you don't like it because it's too spicy, at least
I'll be warned that something I may be worried about will be the case.


So I really see no use to the review. I'm glad the author tried a Strategic Euro. I'm glad he's clear that he doesn't like it and why. Just not his boat then, fine, sorry he wasted his time and some money. I hope he'll MT it for something he likes.

Quote:
I know what games I can't stand and I stay away from them, but writing negative reviews on them isn't going to change the fact that different people have different preferences and like them alot.

Reviews aren't for the people who already like the game. They are there
to give an idea of strengths and weaknesses. Again, this wasn't a
detailed review, but it served as some warning at almost no cost to
anyone. It also highlighted something which might be hard to find
skimming the loads of comments that such a popular game has - bringing
an important point at least to these eyes about a highly rated game
which I likely would (and probably still will) pick up on rating alone
(yeah - I'm stupid. But I want the experience).

Quote:
I mean would it help for me to write negative reviews on all the Carc variants I've tried and dislike? Reallly?

Maybe. Especially if no one else bothered to point out the flaws you
perceive in them. It might be better to lump 'em all together though,
especially if the criticism can be generalized. It might also be better
for someone to make a list of lots of euros facing a certain flaw (such
as rules which don't match reality, or over too soon) - but that would
require investigating a lot of disappointments. I wouldn't wish that
on someone.
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Enrico Viglino
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rzaleski wrote:

We all tend to get protective of Reviews of games we love.

I think THAT'S a problem when it comes to attacking the
review itself, rather than the merits of the points raised.

Now, if you had some detailed defense of the mechanisms, and
how realistic they are, I'd be interested to see that. To defend
the game against the charges is one thing. To claim the charges
are simply invalid, because the reviewer sees the game from a
different point of view is not.
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Steve Duff
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andrewfoerster wrote:
Your distaste for Agricola has always been puzzling to me, given your taste for other games (in which it doesn't seem like thematic integration matters much, etc.), and it's always felt maybe you're being a bit of a contrarian?

The thematic issues aren't why I dislike the game, I was just responding to the post saying how it all made sense. Agricola has just as many thematic inconsistencies as any other euro, if not more.

My reasons for not liking the game very much are the braindead scoring system(TM), the samey-ness, and the constricted gameplay (scoring system contributes here). In short, it's just not much fun.
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Jeff Coon
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The problem with this review isn't that the OP didn't like the game. It's the hyperbole.

"waste of money"
"lame"
"forced myself to play it"
"it was hard playing it 5 times"
"only 1 out of 8 liked it"
"Age of Empires 3 is 100x better"

I'm sure the OP thinks that some of the statements above are true. But all of the statements put together in a single review with such an inflammatory title "Why Agricola is a waste of money" is just hyperbole -- designed to troll, not to add a voice of dissent.

There is some useful content in the review. The OP stated a couple of reasons why he didn't enjoy the game.
- The theme didn't work for him or his playgroup
- The game ends too soon for him, just when the engine gets started
- Too many rules and components make the game tedious to explain

The statements above are a good start to a worthwhile negative review. However, the content gets lost in a sea of hyperbole and inflammatory statements, so the meaning is completely lost. I don't know why anyone's shocked that he got the response he was looking for.
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