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Subject: Why Agricola is a waste of money... rss

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Enrico Viglino
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smcmike wrote:
My REAL point is that your "expectation" for breeding likely has absolutely nothing to do with actual, real-life, pig breeding. Two parents = 1 piglet? I don't think so. And, of course, breeding lambs and cattle are two completely different things as well!

Of course it's all more complicated. And each piece may represent more
than one piggie. But, the more you start with, the more young you breed.

Quote:
It is strange that this is the thing that bothers you. It is one of the thematic elements in a game with a whole lot of elements that have absolutely nothing to do with the theme... specifically the core worker-placement mechanism.

It bothers me upon discussion only. I've not played the game.
But, I am trying to decide if it will hold any interest for me,
as someone who doesn't like euros which don't adequately represent
their subject matter. For example, Die Macher, supposedly heavy on
theme, fails utterly for me on this count. Wallenstein does too -
but I think it's an interesting enough game to work. Oddly (and maybe
because the power industry is largely unknown to me - but so were
German politics) PG does not; I'm willing to suspend whatever disbelief
I have in that model because it does match some intuitive stances.

MisterG wrote:
Maybe it stemmed from a simple desire to keep the number of animeeples (or cubes, whichever) within reasonable bounds.

That would be my assumption. But there are other means of doing so.
Like, put a limit on how many animals you can stable.


freddieyu wrote:
Hmmm....

On animals and breeding...I am a vet by profession, specifically a vet involved in the food industry...

In a real farm situation, having more animals increases the risk of disease incidences and also poses a real challenge in meeting the management and feeding requirements of the animals. This means that the more dense the farm, more livestock gets lost to diseases, and breeding animals are actually not as "fit" to breed since they are nutritionally more deprived. Remember that during those days vaccines and medication were not available, and diseases such as swine fever, bluetongue, etc. were much more prevalent. A typical family in Agricola is challenged to feed themselves, what more their animals? If you look at it in this way, the breeding system in Agricola actually is MORE realistic and thematic, as it represents the real situation which a farm faces when you increase animal density in a non-modern farming operation.

Oh come on. I totally accept that the progression won't be geometric,
but larger populations grow (in absolute terms) more rapidly than
small ones. There are breeding farms after all - and very few* of them
limit their stock to one animal (which would maximize profit by your
explanation).




*actually, there are probably quite a few 'single animal' breeding
operations, but those tend to be males. It's a totally different
situation to what we're discussing here though.
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Fernando Robert Yu
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Enrico, it is obvious the breeding part is abstracted in the same way that family growth (ie 9 months or more) is...

And I am serious on the animal disease aspect..classical swine fever was very prevalent then in europe, and actually is still carried by some wild boars there....it has a 90+% mortality rate in naive (ie unprotected) pigs...

So what I am saying that if you look at animal breeding also as abstractions in terms of time, AND MOST LIKELY numbers as well, then it does make sense that it easier to make fewer livestock breed properly since you can focus better on taking care of them, than compared to a lot of animals which you can also barely feed...the only reason we can really make breeding work well today is the efficiency afforded by technology especially with vaccines, medication, nutrition, as well as controlled environment housing, and EVEN NOW we STILL have a lot of reproductive problems in which high stacking density is definitely 1 possible cause...

Anyway, I was just stating my point of view since like I have said, I have worked in farms and animal breeding isn't as simple as you might think...I am quite sure Uwe wasn't thinking of these scientific points when designing the game (or maybe he was??? hmmm)...and if people want some thematic "reason" on the rules limitation of the Agricola breeding rules, well I hope I can contribute a bit of rationale to it based on my experience....Besides, if we want a lot of animals multiplying a lot, we have Agricola: All Creatures Big and Small for that...
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Enrico Viglino
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Ah well, my gallant attempts to limit my desire for
yet another game are foiled again. Looks like I'll have
to pick it up in order to see. :(
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Trevor Schadt
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calandale wrote:
Ah well, my gallant attempts to limit my desire for yet another game are foiled again. Looks like I'll have to pick it up in order to see. :(
Are there no gaming meetups or local conventions nearby that you could give it a try before plunking down the money for it? Agricola's not exactly a cheap game (MRSP $70) and while I'm sure you could find someone willing to trade for it, let's save yourself the hassle if we can, yes?

I just saw on another thread that RinCon is going to be in Phoenix in just a couple of weeks. While I've never attended (being on the other side of the country and all), I'm sure that any convention game room worth its salt will have a copy sitting around, and at least a couple of people happy to play.
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Enrico Viglino
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ryudoowaru wrote:
calandale wrote:
Ah well, my gallant attempts to limit my desire for yet another game are foiled again. Looks like I'll have to pick it up in order to see. :(
Are there no gaming meetups or local conventions nearby that you could give it a try before plunking down the money for it? Agricola's not exactly a cheap game (MRSP $70) and while I'm sure you could find someone willing to trade for it, let's save yourself the hassle if we can, yes?

Can't learn whether I like something through opposed play. :(


But, I'm not too worried. No way I'll pay that kinda
money for a euro I'm uncertain of. I'll just keep looking
for a deal used.
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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calandale wrote:
I'll have to take your word for the abstraction level of Agricola.
It IS often more difficult to get it right at higher levels of
detail. But, raw materials in - energy out doesn't strike me as
too much more abstract than pigs beget pigs.
Pigs beget pigs is just a small aspect of the many mechanics involved in Agricola. My comment was regarding the game as a whole more than the specific comparison of energy and pigs...
 
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Geoff Burkman
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calandale wrote:
But, I'm not too worried. No way I'll pay that kinda
money for a euro I'm uncertain of. I'll just keep looking
for a deal used.

I'm guessing that a swap of my mint reserve copy for your Pacific War is out of the question.
 
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Enrico Viglino
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MisterG wrote:
calandale wrote:
But, I'm not too worried. No way I'll pay that kinda
money for a euro I'm uncertain of. I'll just keep looking
for a deal used.

I'm guessing that a swap of my mint reserve copy for your Pacific War is out of the question.

Depends on WHICH Pacific War copy.

The first one I purchased is in pretty iffy shape (photocopied
rules, and counters punched as well as gently chewed*).



* Only a couple of these, but a cat definitely was playing.
 
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Fernando Robert Yu
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ldsdbomber wrote:
I can't wait to waste more of my money to buy more Agricola stuff, especially as the hard work of artist Franz Klemens and Play Agricola admin Chris Deotte got my family onto one of the cards

 


 

Cool!
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Jeffrey Smith
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bluearmenian wrote:
I couldn't get over how boring the theme is. There is no drive, nothing moving me forward.
This was the main point that surprised me. I find the notion of having to provide food for my family or else they starve to create a fair amount of tension and drive for the game.

I also find a certain degree of satisfaction in creating my little farm, so even if I lose (or when I lose!) I can console myself with my own little accomplishments.

By the way, I'm a big wargamer too, but I also enjoy a wide variety of games and this one hits the spot for me. Plus my family will actually play this with me.

One last point is that I don't think the game is that hard to explain. I usually walk through a few rounds to give everyone the feel of the game, and then just explain other things as they come up by making helpful suggestions. ("You may want to build a stable so you'll have room for more animals in your pasture." "Now would be a good time to think about increasing the size of your home because pretty soon you'll be able to grow your family.") It takes a game or two to grasp how to build a good strategy.

Edit: I had to chuckle and then comment on the debates over the breeding mechanic. I personally think the fact that multiple farmers can't plow a field in the same season (or have a a baby, or build a room, or plant seed, or bake bread, or just about any other action) is a bit more of an abstraction than anything related to breeding. I'm pretty sure this game isn't intended to be a highly detailed simulation.

But then again, I too enjoy trying to rationalize game mechanics, so carry on.
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Jade Youngblood
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Test
He is trolling
 
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Keith Textor
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A new box of Agricola ... $70

Snacks for your friends while playing Agricola ... $40

Stirring up the Agricola loyalists ... priceless.

Thanks for the review.
 
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james napoli
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"Victory doesn't feel satisfying because I have more vegetables then others."

ha!...great line.

it seems like most of these posts are about the agricola fanboys, but i dont honestly see a lot of posts from said fanbois...

i enjoy extreme reviews, and obviously i'm not alone. Rave reviews, crazy negative reviews of highly rated games, it's fun to see people with varying views. Especially with great subjects "Dis game is borken!', or 'Why Agricola is a waste of money'.

Anyways, there is still time to pledge support for this years drive, so everyone's opinion can continue to be heard...holla!

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/892326/2012-end-of-year-supp...

-
James

 
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Ioan Mitiu
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Not bad but also not good ...
Played Agricola only once - with a guy to whom I played Tzolk'in few day before ( and I really like the Mayan-fantasy ! ) because he said that this will deliver "more depth" ... but unfortunately my impression was more the opposite - and actually I'd agree 100% to the following statement :

bluearmenian wrote:
But Agricola always felt like it's over before it started. It feels like you're just getting your stuff together and it's over. It's also so tidious to explain all the small rules to people. I find this one of them most exhausting games to explain to new people.



I'm wierd & crazy for liking a game like Tzolk'in but same time not wanted to play Agricola once more ?
 
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I like board games more than most people.
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bluearmenian wrote:
Overall: Out of the 8 people I've taught this game to only 1 liked it.

You couldn't have picked a more appropriate game to illustrate the concept, "You reap what you sow."
 
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Darek C
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Thanks for this review.
The theme is also not too appealing to me and having read this thread helped me make a decision not to buy it. I love eurogames and this title being top10 on bgg was on the wishlist but I guess now I will prioritize other titles.

Appreciate the negative reviews, very often are more helpful than positive ones.
 
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