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Subject: jacking out rss

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Just to be clear:

Let's say I have two pieces of unrezzed ice in front of an asset. The runner takes a run at my remote server and I decide not to rez either of the ices because it's a trap for them (Project Junebug).

If I don't rez the first ice, the runner still does not have the option of jacking out right? Since they haven't approached the "first" ice. I'm assuming in the rules, it means that you can't jack out when dealing with the first piece of rezzed ice?

It seems that the runner has no option of jacking out this case, even though they might sense something is up since the corp isn't rezzing any ice.

Thanks for the help!
 
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David Kempe-Cook
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The Runner has a chance to jack out after approaching each piece of ICE (rezzed or unrezzed) and after passing each piece of ICE. If you look at the flow chart on the back of the rules, it says that.
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Jeff Lindsay
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Approaching ice and encountering ice are not the same. A runner approaches all ice in their path. They only encounter rezzed ice. In your example they would approach the first piece of ice, you'd decide not to rez it. After that they could decide to jack out or approach the 2nd piece of ice. Again if you didn't rez they would have one last chance to jack out before accessing cards.
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Thomas Leitner
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See pg 18 of the rule book.

The runner has an opportunity to jack out prior to each encounter. Since accessing assets and agendas is an encounter, the runner may jack out prior to encountering the Corp's asset/agenda.
 
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Aaron Morgan
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The Runner approaches the first piece of ICE. He does not have the option to jack out while approaching the first piece of ice on a run.

You choose not to rez it. The Runner has passed that piece of ICE. He may now jack out or approach the next piece of ICE.

He approaches the second piece of ICE. You decide not to rez it. He has passed that piece of ICE. He may now jack out or approach the server.

He approaches the server. You may rez Junebug for 0, pay 1 credit, and hit the runner for some net damage.
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Patrick Jamet
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Some answers are incomplete. Aaron is right.

page 17 wrote:
The Runner cannot jack out while approaching the first piece of ice during a run. [bold in the text]

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Jeff Lindsay
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That's why I specifically didn't say the runner had that option in my answer.
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Brian Hornberger
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Haven't played this game yet but watched a demo and read the rulebook, but something didn't click with me yet. Why would you jack out if you had bypassed all of the ice and gained access, are there bad effects on some of the Assets/agendas? An example would be nice.

TIA and Cheers!
 
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Drew Dallas
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Yes some have bad things happen to the runner
Project Junebug is an example.
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Mat Nowak
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Logicfray wrote:
Haven't played this game yet but watched a demo and read the rulebook, but something didn't click with me yet. Why would you jack out if you had bypassed all of the ice and gained access, are there bad effects on some of the Assets/agendas? An example would be nice.

TIA and Cheers!

Yes. One example is an Asset called Junebug. Here is what it says: "Project Junebug can be advanced. If you pay 1 credit when the Runner accesses Project Junebug, do 2 net damage for each advancement token on Project Junebug." Many a runner have died to it.
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EitherOrlok wrote:
The Runner approaches the first piece of ICE. He does not have the option to jack out while approaching the first piece of ice on a run.

You choose not to rez it. The Runner has passed that piece of ICE. He may now jack out or approach the next piece of ICE.

He approaches the second piece of ICE. You decide not to rez it. He has passed that piece of ICE. He may now jack out or approach the server.

He approaches the server. You may rez Junebug for 0, pay 1 credit, and hit the runner for some net damage.

Great answer but I just have one question: You say "You may rez Junebug for 0...." Are you really rezzing Junebug in this case, or is the runner just accessing it after a successful run? Maybe it's not material in this case, but I've always interpreted it as the latter based on the card text: "If you pay 1c when the Runner accesses Project Junebug...."
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Enon Sci
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AstroLad wrote:
EitherOrlok wrote:
The Runner approaches the first piece of ICE. He does not have the option to jack out while approaching the first piece of ice on a run.

You choose not to rez it. The Runner has passed that piece of ICE. He may now jack out or approach the next piece of ICE.

He approaches the second piece of ICE. You decide not to rez it. He has passed that piece of ICE. He may now jack out or approach the server.

He approaches the server. You may rez Junebug for 0, pay 1 credit, and hit the runner for some net damage.

Great answer but I just have one question: You say "You may rez Junebug for 0...." Are you really rezzing Junebug in this case, or is the runner just accessing it after a successful run? Maybe it's not material in this case, but I've always interpreted it as the latter based on the card text: "If you pay 1c when the Runner accesses Project Junebug...."


I play it like you do, by purely accessing the asset the Corp is given the option to trigger the card effects. However, according to the timing diagram:



You have to rez the card in stage 4.1. If it's unrezzed when you get to 4.3, I could see a really anal player claim you couldn't trigger the ability, and I dare say the rules support this (annoying) view.
 
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Aaron Morgan
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Anarchosyn wrote:
You have to rez the card in stage 4.1. If it's unrezzed when you get to 4.3, I could see a really anal player claim you couldn't trigger the ability, and I dare say the rules support this (annoying) view.


That's the interpretation I was using - the card is inactive while unrezzed and an inactive card's abilities cannot be triggered.

"Important Vocabulary" on page 5, and "Remote Servers" on page 6.
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Big Head Zach
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In the case of Junebug and Snare, I think the answer is simple:

OF COURSE THE CORP'S GOING TO EFFING REZ IT. Please don't treat people like they're in a game of Simon Says.

That being resolved, can we not be nitpicky about something that not even the old school players were nitpicky about?
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Interesting. This actually kind of reminds me a little of the discussion around Snare! I'm going to play all those cards the "common sense" way to me -- which is that when you access an ambush that triggers on an access, it springs. Not to say that my "common sense" is right and I look forward to the FAQ ruling on how these things work.
 
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Quote:
In the case of Junebug and Snare, I think the answer is simple:

OF COURSE THE CORP'S GOING TO EFFING REZ IT.

That being resolved, can we not be nitpicky about something that not even the old school players were nitpicky about?

Re Snare, how is the Corp going to Rez something that came from HQ? afaik you can only Rez installed cards. And I'd argue that the "nitpicky" ruling here is requiring a rez when an access condition has already been met; especially when cards like Snare literally can't function properly if you take this view rigidly.
 
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Aaron Morgan
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AstroLad wrote:
Interesting. This actually kind of reminds me a little of the discussion around Snare! I'm going to play all those cards the "common sense" way to me -- which is that when you access an ambush that triggers on an access, it springs. Not to say that my "common sense" is right and I look forward to the FAQ ruling on how these things work.


It can't trigger if it's inactive. Please look at the rules I cited. They're very clear, and you don't need to wait for an FAQ.
 
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Big Head Zach
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AstroLad wrote:
Quote:
In the case of Junebug and Snare, I think the answer is simple:

OF COURSE THE CORP'S GOING TO EFFING REZ IT.

That being resolved, can we not be nitpicky about something that not even the old school players were nitpicky about?

Re Snare, how is the Corp going to Rez something that came from HQ? afaik you can only Rez installed cards. And I'd argue that the "nitpicky" ruling here is requiring a rez when an access condition has already been met; especially when cards like Snare literally can't function properly if you take this view rigidly.


Ok, Snare was a bad example that didn't apply, but in any case, when there is a 0-rez-cost effect on a card that helps the Corp, let's do the nice thing and give him/her the benefit of the doubt - since there is practically no effect that the Runner could employ to somehow pre-empt (or even post-empt) the rezzing that would change the outcome (in Junebug's case, the Runner will access it no matter what, and the Corp will have the option to rez right before the accessing), I've always played that the asset auto-rezzes because when would the Corp ever NOT do that?

Along the same lines, has a Runner ever allowed a 0-trash-cost Asset / Upgrade to remain installed?
 
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EitherOrlok wrote:
AstroLad wrote:
Interesting. This actually kind of reminds me a little of the discussion around Snare! I'm going to play all those cards the "common sense" way to me -- which is that when you access an ambush that triggers on an access, it springs. Not to say that my "common sense" is right and I look forward to the FAQ ruling on how these things work.


It can't trigger if it's inactive. Please look at the rules I cited. They're very clear, and you don't need to wait for an FAQ.

Ok, so snare can't trigger when pulled from R&D either since I have no opportunity to rez it? Just want to be sure I'm being consistent here.
 
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Big Head Zach
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AstroLad wrote:
Ok, so snare can't trigger when pulled from R&D either since I have no opportunity to rez it? Just want to be sure I'm being consistent here.


This is the reason why a 0 rez cost is interpreted to mean "It just happens when you access it, okay?" I challenge FFG to come up with a reason why I'd ever willingly rez an Ambush Asset. Why didn't they just make Snare a 3-rez-cost Asset if that's how we're going to lawyer this? Even Junebug requires you to spend a credit to have it work, why not make that the rez cost, huh?

*grumble*
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Aaron Morgan
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AstroLad wrote:
Ok, so snare can't trigger when pulled from R&D either since I have no opportunity to rez it? Just want to be sure I'm being consistent here.


Snare gives a specific exception to the rules, as it triggers in a nonstandard way. "The Golden Rule", page 5.
 
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Aaron Morgan
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bhz1 wrote:
"It just happens when you access it, okay?"


Except that it doesn't in the Junebug example. Runner passes the ICE, doesn't jack out, you rez the asset, he accesses it, and you hit him.
 
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Enon Sci
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bhz1 wrote:
AstroLad wrote:
Ok, so snare can't trigger when pulled from R&D either since I have no opportunity to rez it? Just want to be sure I'm being consistent here.


This is the reason why a 0 rez cost is interpreted to mean "It just happens when you access it, okay?" I challenge FFG to come up with a reason why I'd ever willingly rez an Ambush Asset. Why didn't they just make Snare a 3-rez-cost Asset if that's how we're going to lawyer this?

*grumble*


Because, if you look at the timing diagram, the rez timing in section 4.1 comes after the Runner has a chance to jack out.

That said, I completely agree with you -- Aaron Morgan's interpretation is silly. As Astrolad hit on, if you take the literalist tact, you can't rationalize how Snare! could work in HQ and R&D. The fact it does should be enough evidence that there is more to the analysis.

 
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Enon Sci
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EitherOrlok wrote:
AstroLad wrote:
Ok, so snare can't trigger when pulled from R&D either since I have no opportunity to rez it? Just want to be sure I'm being consistent here.


Snare gives a specific exception to the rules, as it triggers in a nonstandard way. "The Golden Rule", page 5.


You sure about that? Let us compare the card text:

Snare!: If Snare! is accessed from R&D, the Runner must reveal it.

If you pay 4 [Credits] when the Runner accesses Snare!, do 3 net damage and give the Runner 1 tag. Ignore this effect if the Runner accesses Snare! from Archives.


Project Junebug: If you pay 1 [Credits] when the Runner accesses Project Junebug, do 2 net damage for each advancement token on Project Junebug.
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Big Head Zach
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I played in the tournament at GenCon and NO ONE, not even the veteran players, ever called me on not rezzing Junebug. Why? Because it'd be silly for me to not want to do so.

I'm done.
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