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Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » General

Subject: Concerns about the game play rss

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Greg Lott
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Ok, so I've pre-orderred this and am excited to play it... but now that I've read the rules, I'm not sure this will actually feel like a dogfight? In a dogfight scenario, both in real life and in Star Wars, a ship getting on your 'six' is bad news. They will try to shadow your every move and if they can't be shaken off, you're dead meat. Here, that appears to be a non-present situation. You can't follow anyone because moves are declared simultaneously. So, if you are tailing someone and don't guess what they are about to do, you immediately lose their tail. That seems... really strange to me.

Please tell me I'm missing something.
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Deniper Deniper
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Well two thoughts I have on this.

Firstly you could certainly make a house rule for tailing.
"if a fighter is in the aft arc of a enemy fighter (definition needed)the player who's ship is being tailed must tell the tailing player if his maneuver is left right or straight."

Secondly in WW1-2 one of the reasons tailing was so effective was you can see the plane's maneuver surfaces move before the maneuver happens. The effect was slight and took practice but did apperently make a difference.

Of course tailing also allowed a great shot opportunity with little deflection and with out your target fireing back. Which this game does simulate to some extent.

My thoughts on it for what it's worth.
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Scott C
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Having a fighter slide in on your 6 is still "bad news," as you put it. While there are no rules to explicitly make it easier for you to tail your target, so long as you continue plotting "slow" maneuvers, you're not likely to lose them in a single turn.

Also, the maneuvers are simple enough that there aren't *that* many possibilities to account for; it's not like this is a Crimson Skies maneuver template (which is complex and diverse enough to require explicit tailing mechanics) -- second guessing a pilot to stay on his tail is pretty reasonable in X-Wing, you just have to look at the same factors he is while making his decisions.
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Charlie Theel
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I posted this question about tailing rules a long time ago as I was concerned the tailing rules would be similar to Wings of War (whose tailing rules I'm not very fond of).

In Wings of War we house ruled it to be pretty much what Deniper is suggesting. You draw an arc from the back of the plane you are trying to tail (trace a diagnol from the center of the base through each corner to form a wide cone out the back) and if your ship is this arc, the ship you are trying to tail is in your front arc, AND you are within a certain distance (maybe medium/short range in X-Wing?) you are tailing.

If you are tailing, the opponent must tell you left, right, or straight before you pick your maneuver. We considered the Immellman a straight (not sure what this is called in X-Wing but it is where you fly straight and then flip around to be facing the opposite direction).

This worked very well in WoW because tailing was a bit easier to maintain but you could still shake your opponnent if your ship could outmaneuver him or you were clever. We will probably use these rules for X-Wing.
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Greg Lott
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charlest wrote:
I posted this question about tailing rules a long time ago as I was concerned the tailing rules would be similar to Wings of War (whose tailing rules I'm not very fond of).

In Wings of War we house ruled it to be pretty much what Deniper is suggesting. You draw an arc from the back of the plane you are trying to tail (trace a diagnol from the center of the base through each corner to form a wide cone out the back) and if your ship is this arc, the ship you are trying to tail is in your front arc, AND you are within a certain distance (maybe medium/short range in X-Wing?) you are tailing.

If you are tailing, the opponent must tell you left, right, or straight before you pick your maneuver. We considered the Immellman a straight (not sure what this is called in X-Wing but it is where you fly straight and then flip around to be facing the opposite direction).

This worked very well in WoW because tailing was a bit easier to maintain but you could still shake your opponnent if your ship could outmaneuver him or you were clever. We will probably use these rules for X-Wing.


Excellent, thanks guys...

Btw, the Immelman would probably be MORE effective in space than it was in the real world. The Immelman lost popularity with prop aircraft in WWII because the amount of energy lost during your climb made you a sitting duck when at the peak elevation. Without gravity, that's a moot concern, although the maneuver would probably look slightly different.
 
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I think tailing should remain the responsibility of your brain out guessing your opponents brain, rather than just having it given to you.

Its not like in the x wing computer games there was an arrow attached to the tie fighters telling you which way they were going to go when you were behind them.
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Andrea Angiolino
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charlest wrote:
We considered the Immellman a straight (not sure what this is called in X-Wing but it is where you fly straight and then flip around to be facing the opposite direction).


The Immelmann turn is called Koiogran turn in X-Wing. Even with that name, it works exactly as an Immelmann (an offensive tactic to attack an enemy at your back, performed as you describe it) from a WW1/WW2 air combat game, while a Koiogran turn in the Star Wars universe is actually an evasive maneuvre made by stopping and then fleeing away in a random direction - exactly what you would like to perform to avoid tailing.
http://www.cuswe.org/newdescr.asp?search=14005

In WoW, you have tailing when a ruler connecting the central pegs of the bases passes through the front side of the pursuer and the rear side of the pursued base. The aim of the "connect central pegs" tailing rule in WoW is to make tailing less frequent: if you have tailing every time the tailed plane is in the front cone of the tailing one and the tailing plane is in the rear cone of the tailed one, it becomes easier since it works when any part of the base is in the conme, not just the central peg (besides, the maximum distance is also omne ruler from peg to peg, shorter than when firing). Using that system, it will be even easier in X-Wing where firing cones are drawn in an identical way (from center of the base to the two front corner), but since the base is more squared the cone is broader.
Not a criticism - just a notation of an effect that you could maybe actually want or prefer to avoid.
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Joel Eddy
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ironman99 wrote:
I think tailing should remain the responsibility of your brain out guessing your opponents brain, rather than just having it given to you.

Its not like in the x wing computer games there was an arrow attached to the tie fighters telling you which way they were going to go when you were behind them.


That's my take on it as well.
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eekamouse wrote:
ironman99 wrote:
I think tailing should remain the responsibility of your brain out guessing your opponents brain, rather than just having it given to you.

Its not like in the x wing computer games there was an arrow attached to the tie fighters telling you which way they were going to go when you were behind them.


That's my take on it as well.


Guessing = Luck

You might as well play Rock, Paper, Scissors if it's all about out-guessing your opponent.
 
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ferris1971 wrote:
eekamouse wrote:
ironman99 wrote:
I think tailing should remain the responsibility of your brain out guessing your opponents brain, rather than just having it given to you.

Its not like in the x wing computer games there was an arrow attached to the tie fighters telling you which way they were going to go when you were behind them.


That's my take on it as well.


Guessing = Luck

You might as well play Rock, Paper, Scissors if it's all about out-guessing your opponent.


If the battlefield is empty of other craft and obstacles, I would agree. I would say you mostly have educated guesses (which aren't luck) if there are more than the two craft left on the battlefield, and no asteroids to plow into.
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Greg Lott
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eekamouse wrote:
ferris1971 wrote:
eekamouse wrote:
ironman99 wrote:
I think tailing should remain the responsibility of your brain out guessing your opponents brain, rather than just having it given to you.

Its not like in the x wing computer games there was an arrow attached to the tie fighters telling you which way they were going to go when you were behind them.


That's my take on it as well.


Guessing = Luck

You might as well play Rock, Paper, Scissors if it's all about out-guessing your opponent.


If the battlefield is empty of other craft and obstacles, I would agree. I would say you mostly have educated guesses (which aren't luck) if there are more than the two craft left on the battlefield, and no asteroids to plow into.


Fair enough, like I said, I haven't actually played it yet.
 
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Bryan Schmidt
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I was wondering about the lack of tailing myself. After getting in a few more games, I'm not concerned about it. The couple of times I have been behind my opponent I have felt like I was able to predict, rather than guess what he might do next.

Things like nearby help, being shaded to the left or right, and ability to perform a Koiogran Turn all give you some clues to know what makes sense. I never felt like I was randomly guessing. (not that I always chose correctly)

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ferris1971 wrote:
eekamouse wrote:
ironman99 wrote:
I think tailing should remain the responsibility of your brain out guessing your opponents brain, rather than just having it given to you.

Its not like in the x wing computer games there was an arrow attached to the tie fighters telling you which way they were going to go when you were behind them.


That's my take on it as well.


Guessing = Luck

You might as well play Rock, Paper, Scissors if it's all about out-guessing your opponent.


It sounds like this game is not for you. The main mechanism is trying to guess/figure out where you opponent is moving his ships and trying to get your ships in a good firing position.
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Charlie Theel
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eekamouse wrote:
ironman99 wrote:
I think tailing should remain the responsibility of your brain out guessing your opponents brain, rather than just having it given to you.

Its not like in the x wing computer games there was an arrow attached to the tie fighters telling you which way they were going to go when you were behind them.


That's my take on it as well.


This makes no sense to me. Tailing someone correctly shouldn't be out-guessing. There should be some "cue" to allow you to make an educated guess.

In the X wing computer game or in a real life situation (I know this is fiction) you would have a split second after your opponent chose a direction to follow him. That's why "shaking" someone requires effort, you have to fake and deke to get him to go the wrong way.

In X-wing/WoW there's no half-second gap to allow you to get a small glimpse of what your opponent is going to do to make your decision. That's the entire point of the suggested "left, right, or straight" reveal from the pilot being tailed. It's not too strong or too weak because you don't know the degree/speed of the turn and have to make a guess on where he's going exactly.
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Charlie Theel
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Another point:

Without tailing rules that include some cue, you're better off hitting someone from the flank than the rear. Why? Because if I approach on your left flank I know you're most likely going to continue flying straight or perform the Koiogran and change direction (in which case I'm still on your flank, just your right flank now). Most likely you're going to try and turn sharply to your left and get around my flank (but I can follow you as long as I was close enough that your sharpest turn only puts us side to side).

If you're tailing someone in X-Wing, you have a 25% chance of guessing correctly. Options include: left turn, right turn, continue straight, Koiogran. I'm not sure how you can make an educated guess because if you're tailing me, I'm going to act erratically. There's no series of planned movements so the opponent is not bound by any rules to move a specific way (unless he's stressed or damage comes into play).

I don't think the flank should be more advantageous than the rear.
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Joel Eddy
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charlest wrote:
eekamouse wrote:
ironman99 wrote:
I think tailing should remain the responsibility of your brain out guessing your opponents brain, rather than just having it given to you.

Its not like in the x wing computer games there was an arrow attached to the tie fighters telling you which way they were going to go when you were behind them.


That's my take on it as well.


This makes no sense to me. Tailing someone correctly shouldn't be out-guessing. There should be some "cue" to allow you to make an educated guess.

In the X wing computer game or in a real life situation (I know this is fiction) you would have a split second after your opponent chose a direction to follow him. That's why "shaking" someone requires effort, you have to fake and deke to get him to go the wrong way.

In X-wing/WoW there's no half-second gap to allow you to get a small glimpse of what your opponent is going to do to make your decision. That's the entire point of the suggested "left, right, or straight" reveal from the pilot being tailed. It's not too strong or too weak because you don't know the degree/speed of the turn and have to make a guess on where he's going exactly.


I 100% agree with you "on paper", but once you get a space set up with multiple ships and asteroids and scenario objectives, it's different.

If it's only the two ships left, I can see it being problematic. It's definitely problematic in the basic game with the three basic ships and no obstacles. That's why they shrink the playing space down to 2x2 instead of the 3x3. I still found it can turn into a never ending chase. You really have to throw in the scenarios, so the game is not JUST about a "pure dog fight". The scenario objectives give the game a focus that just throwing spacecraft on the table does not.
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Charlie Theel
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eekamouse wrote:
charlest wrote:
eekamouse wrote:
ironman99 wrote:
I think tailing should remain the responsibility of your brain out guessing your opponents brain, rather than just having it given to you.

Its not like in the x wing computer games there was an arrow attached to the tie fighters telling you which way they were going to go when you were behind them.


That's my take on it as well.


This makes no sense to me. Tailing someone correctly shouldn't be out-guessing. There should be some "cue" to allow you to make an educated guess.

In the X wing computer game or in a real life situation (I know this is fiction) you would have a split second after your opponent chose a direction to follow him. That's why "shaking" someone requires effort, you have to fake and deke to get him to go the wrong way.

In X-wing/WoW there's no half-second gap to allow you to get a small glimpse of what your opponent is going to do to make your decision. That's the entire point of the suggested "left, right, or straight" reveal from the pilot being tailed. It's not too strong or too weak because you don't know the degree/speed of the turn and have to make a guess on where he's going exactly.


I 100% agree with you "on paper", but once you get a space set up with multiple ships and asteroids and scenario objectives, it's different.

If it's only the two ships left, I can see it being problematic. It's definitely problematic in the basic game with the three basic ships and no obstacles. That's why they shrink the playing space down to 2x2 instead of the 3x3. I still found it can turn into a never ending chase. You really have to throw in the scenarios, so the game is not JUST about a "pure dog fight". The scenario objectives give the game a focus that just throwing spacecraft on the table does not.


I see what you're saying, but it sounds like all that chaos making tailing not an issue is just a result of the problem being masked/forgotten about due to other stuff happening.

I don't think the exclusion of tailing rules or someone not wanting them is wrong, I'm cool with that and I'm not criticizing the game (I'm super excited about receiving it in the mail). For me, tailing is a large part of the space combat in Star Wars and I'm planning on using a simple, easy to remember rule to replicate it.

I mean, I can't even recall a space battle in the original trilogy where tailing did not occur for at least a portion of the fight. From the battle of Yavin (tailing happens several times, not just in the trench), battle at the 2nd death star, Millenium Falcon being chased through the asteroid field, etc.
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charlest wrote:
This makes no sense to me. Tailing someone correctly shouldn't be out-guessing. There should be some "cue" to allow you to make an educated guess.


Yes, very true. You have always the possibility of out-guess your prey, no matter the relative position. From a simulation point of view (if anybody cares about simulation in a fictional universe game) the tailing rules should represent the advantage of being on somebody's tail instead than in any other relative position (an advantage that's also clear in the Star Wars universe, if you look at dogfights in the movies). Including side, yes.

Edit: crosspost with the above, even more specific about tailing in SW universe.
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charlest wrote:

I see what you're saying, but it sounds like all that chaos making tailing not an issue is just a result of the problem being masked/forgotten about due to other stuff happening.

I don't think the exclusion of tailing rules or someone not wanting them is wrong, I'm cool with that and I'm not criticizing the game (I'm super excited about receiving it in the mail). For me, tailing is a large part of the space combat in Star Wars and I'm planning on using a simple, easy to remember rule to replicate it.

I mean, I can't even recall a space battle in the original trilogy where tailing did not occur for at least a portion of the fight. From the battle of Yavin (tailing happens several times, not just in the trench), battle at the 2nd death star, Millenium Falcon being chased through the asteroid field, etc.


Definitely. I should have clarified that I was speaking from a "game/fun" perspective, not from a simulation angle. I grant that it does suck to just chase someone forever around the game space, but once you add in all of that extra stuff, it doesn't happen.

The tricky thing from a pure simulation perspective is the pilot rating. Lower rating always moves first. So, things would get a bit garbled if you tried to do too many adjustments after the fact.

If you have someone in your sites and are moving second (have a higher rating), you might make it so that you can just adjust your "speed" by plus or minus one. Take the same shape and then grab the next one up or down if you choose.

If you have someone in your site and are moving first, it really makes no sense, but I attribute that to the followers low pilot rating and them not having the skill to keep up with Luke or Darth Vader etc...
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angiolillo wrote:
charlest wrote:
This makes no sense to me. Tailing someone correctly shouldn't be out-guessing. There should be some "cue" to allow you to make an educated guess.


Yes, very true. You have always the possibility of out-guess your prey, no matter the relative position. From a simulation point of view (if anybody cares about simulation in a fictional universe game) the tailing rules should represent the advantage of being on somebody's tail instead than in any other relative position (an advantage that's also clear in the Star Wars universe, if you look at dogfights in the movies). Including side, yes.

Edit: crosspost with the above, even more specific about tailing in SW universe.


From the bold portion, I definitely do care! As most fans of Star Wars know, Lucas modeled the dogfighting scenes off of WWI and WWII warplanes rather than what it may be like in actual zero-g space. I like it for the same reason he did, it's exciting and easier to relate to. Being behind someone is a much greater advantage than just being out of their weapon arc, you have a strong advantage that should usually prove to be an ultimate advantage.

Personally I liked how you did it in WoW, it felt right compared to my experience with WWI/WWII flight combat simulators. The tailing pilot still needs to have the reflexes, skill, and mental prowess to react to the target's actions, but there is a strong advantage from this position.
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In a fair size battle you can have eight to ten ships in one fight and figuring out who is tailing whom and determining the sequence of revealing manuevers would really slow the game down.
 
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Mundane wrote:
In a fair size battle you can have eight to ten ships in one fight and figuring out who is tailing whom and determining the sequence of revealing manuevers would really slow the game down.


It doesn't in Wings of War and while the games are different, that's still an indication to me it would work fine in X-Wing.

In X-Wing, do you often have like 4+ planes all on top of each other or within a 2-3 inches?
 
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Mundane wrote:
In a fair size battle you can have eight to ten ships in one fight and figuring out who is tailing whom and determining the sequence of revealing manuevers would really slow the game down.


Fair enough, and I'll wait to actually play the game before making judgement.

That said, I wouldn't consider slowing down the game a good enough rationale to leaving out a key mechanic and/or concept. I've played games of WoW with 8 players, each piloting their own plane. Tailing didn't prove to be a time sink because the high vulnerability that being tailed created meant people were cautious to not get into that position; it was rare for any plane to have a tail and nearly unheard of for more than one at a time to exist.
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Personally, I haven't played this game yet, and I reserve any and all judgement about how beneficial or not it is to be behind somebody, whether the flank or the back is better or whatever, until I have actually played the game.

Having absorbed all the info there is about this game to date doesn't help me the slightest bit when it comes to knowing whether tailing somebody helps my fighter or not. I'll need actual gameplay experience before I know that.

And with gameplay experience, I mean experience playing this game, with this game's mechanisms concerning pilot skill and target locks and upgrades and all, all of which might or might not be in another game (and I start to care less and less whether they are).

I'll gladly join a later discussion about tailing house rules with less bile, once I start feeling it's based on more than "but that other game has something this one hasn't and I want this game to be just like that other one".
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If you are behind someone and want to keep them in your sights, then just perform a 1 or 2 ahead maneuver. It is extremely unlikely that your enemy will be able to turn and get out of your firing arc/range.

With the limited maneuvers on the maneuver dials, I think even a simple 'left/right/straight' comment would make it extremely unbalancing.
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