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Subject: Any response to claims of censorship? rss

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Clem Byard
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Apparently BGG admins have moved discussion of the online implementation of Dominion to VGG.

Reading the posts there a number of people seem to think that this may have been done to effectively silence criticism of the company creating the implementation.

I would be interested to hear what the BGG admins have to say in response to this accusation.

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Richard Morris
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Fizo wrote:
Apparently BGG admins have moved discussion of the online implementation of Dominion to VGG.

Reading the posts there a number of people seem to think that this may have been done to effectively silence criticism of the company creating the implementation.

I would be interested to hear what the BGG admins have to say in response to this accusation.

I'm not an admin, so please feel free to ignore me. I think that any suggestion that this is designed to silence criticism is nonsense. I think they would have done the same thing had the launch been a spectacular success, and there were oodles of threads praising it. I think it is designed to try to promote their seriously flawed design that separates things that should not be separated.
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Cyrus the Great
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BGG has done this consistently in forums where posts about online/iOS versions have been numerous, for instance the Le Havre forums. I am quite sure the decision had nothing to do with the actual content of the discussion, merely its amount.
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brian
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I am not sure how it is censorship when we all have access to those forums. Censorship would be removing the tread or possibly locking it. They are just moving it to where it should have been placed from the beginning.

An electronic implementation of the game is not the game itself. And people who own just the "cardboard" version don't necessarily care about these implementations.
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Bruno
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
I am not sure how it is censorship when we all have access to those forums. Censorship would be removing the tread or possibly locking it. They are just moving it to where it should have been placed from the beginning.

An electronic implementation of the game is not the game itself. And people who own just the "cardboard" version don't necessarily care about these implementations.


So, if I only own the digital edition of the game, and have a rules question, where do I go ? The BGG entry or the VGG entry ?
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Eric Taylor
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teg2 wrote:

So, if I only own the digital edition of the game, and have a rules question, where do I go ? The BGG entry or the VGG entry ?


Either, because the rules are the same between games although the interface is not.

Also related to the OP, I love it when people bust out their tinfoil hats. It's a forum conspiracy! Get your torches and pitchforks, everyone!
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teg2 wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
I am not sure how it is censorship when we all have access to those forums. Censorship would be removing the tread or possibly locking it. They are just moving it to where it should have been placed from the beginning.

An electronic implementation of the game is not the game itself. And people who own just the "cardboard" version don't necessarily care about these implementations.


So, if I only own the digital edition of the game, and have a rules question, where do I go ? The BGG entry or the VGG entry ?


No answer from me, BUT that may be the BEST question I have seen thus far. This will be a huge issue sooner or later.
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Richard Morris
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teg2 wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
I am not sure how it is censorship when we all have access to those forums. Censorship would be removing the tread or possibly locking it. They are just moving it to where it should have been placed from the beginning.

An electronic implementation of the game is not the game itself. And people who own just the "cardboard" version don't necessarily care about these implementations.


So, if I only own the digital edition of the game, and have a rules question, where do I go ? The BGG entry or the VGG entry ?
The real problem is that there is no link between them. So a VGG user who does not go into BGG (if VGG ever got to the thing that the admins hope it would, there will be such people) will not necessarily know that such a thing exists.

The problem is not whether such threads should go into BGG or VGG but that there is a distinction between them, and that the admins insist that something must be one thing or the other. In the real world there are shades of grey. It seem obvious to me that you should be able to get to such threads from both the BGG listing and the VGG listing.
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Simon Kamber
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Snipafist wrote:
teg2 wrote:

So, if I only own the digital edition of the game, and have a rules question, where do I go ? The BGG entry or the VGG entry ?


Either, because the rules are the same between games although the interface is not.


Would you ever actually go to VGG for the answer to a rules question about Le Havre?

If you wanted to discuss Le Havre strategy, would you choose to do so on VGG?

It seems to me that even for purely digital boardgamers, the best place for those discussions would be BGG. The only effect of this policy is that they are de facto prevented from discussing the issues that concern the medium itself.
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Matthew Roskam
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It happened when the game designer asked for it (I think a thread I started seemed to be the catalyst for his request). I think BGG responds very quickly to game designer and publisher requests, which isn't a bad thing.

I don't think this was a conspiracy to hide critical comments, but it does highlight the unique problem mobile versions of traditional board games is creating for BGG. Just having different versions of the same cardboard game messes up the board game rankings (i.e. Puerto Rico, War of the Rings) so these digital versions are really mucking up the works.

I think there should be a single page for every game, with the ability to break off from there into its different iterations. Othwise, this is only going to get more fragmented.
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Simon Kamber
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Mwroskam wrote:
I don't think this was a conspiracy to hide critical comments, but it does highlight the unique problem mobile versions of traditional board games is creating for BGG. Just having different versions of the same cardboard game messes up the board game rankings (i.e. Puerto Rico, War of the Rings) so these digital versions are really mucking up the works.


Agreed. On the longer term, this issue is going to need a more smooth solution than moving to VGG.
 
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Donald X.
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Mwroskam wrote:
It happened when the game designer asked for it (I think a thread I started seemed to be the catalyst for his request). I think BGG responds very quickly to game designer and publisher requests, which isn't a bad thing.

Incorrecto. I did not request that any thread be moved to VGG, and did not know such a thing was possible. I have suggested that people complain about Goko on Goko's own feedback forums, that's as close as I can get for you.

Looking at the Goko threads now, they appear to be in forums for an *unrelated* *fan-made* implementation that put my name in their title and then didn't take it out when I told them to, which I will never forgive them for. So, Goko threads being moved to those forums, that's incredibly awful, so very bad, utterly senseless and wrong.
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David desJardins
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Fizo wrote:
Reading the posts there a number of people seem to think that this may have been done to effectively silence criticism of the company creating the implementation.


It doesn't make any sense. BGG has done this for online implementations of other games, too, including games where the same company publishes the physical game and the online version. And why would they care about silencing criticism, anyway?

A more plausible criticism (in my opinion) that they are doing it despite the interest of users, in order to try to drive more traffic to their new site (which hasn't been very successful).
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Matt E
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I don't really understand the point of VGG in the first place. Who thought that was a good idea? They're competing against a bunch of other well-established communities and as far as I can tell are offering nothing new. Why in the world wouldn't I just use GameFAQs instead?
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brian
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teg2 wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
I am not sure how it is censorship when we all have access to those forums. Censorship would be removing the tread or possibly locking it. They are just moving it to where it should have been placed from the beginning.

An electronic implementation of the game is not the game itself. And people who own just the "cardboard" version don't necessarily care about these implementations.


So, if I only own the digital edition of the game, and have a rules question, where do I go ? The BGG entry or the VGG entry ?

VGG. or BGG. I am not saying it is right or wrong, all I am saying is they have an established protocol, not some nefarious plan of censorship. I think you can (if it isn't already) linked.

Personally, I would prefer digital versions of game's be classified as a "version" of the cardboard so that rule questions can be answered.
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Matthew M
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Moved to Complaint Dept

Fizo wrote:
Apparently BGG admins have moved discussion of the online implementation of Dominion to VGG.


True - because those discussions are only tangentially related to the game of Dominion.

Quote:
Reading the posts there a number of people seem to think that this may have been done to effectively silence criticism of the company creating the implementation.


We have no dog in this fight. We just don't want the Dominion forums cluttered with what is essentially non-Dominion discussions (like this one)

-MMM
 
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Matthew M
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donaldx wrote:

Looking at the Goko threads now, they appear to be in forums for an *unrelated* *fan-made* implementation that put my name in their title and then didn't take it out when I told them to, which I will never forgive them for. So, Goko threads being moved to those forums, that's incredibly awful, so very bad, utterly senseless and wrong.


As soon as the official app is released and there's an entry for it we will move the Goko threads to the new entry. As it is, these discussions are still a better fit in the current incorrect iOS entry than they are in the board game entry.

-MMM
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Ben MacFarlane
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Octavian wrote:
As it is, these discussions are still a better fit in the current incorrect iOS entry than they are in the board game entry.


Categorically false. There's no way threads about some company's allegedly shitty digital implementation of a board game are more of a fit in an entirely unrelated individual's apparently - never used it myself - fine digital implementation of the same board game. That's just going to confuse the issue and associate the unrelated individual with the allegedly shitty company.

Pragmatically, for BGG, it might: 1) cause less complaints because less people subscribe to the unrelated individual's IOS implementation than Dominion itself, and: 2) cause more exposure for VGG, but for everyone else its just more confusing.

edited for more allegedly.
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Bruno
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
teg2 wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
I am not sure how it is censorship when we all have access to those forums. Censorship would be removing the tread or possibly locking it. They are just moving it to where it should have been placed from the beginning.

An electronic implementation of the game is not the game itself. And people who own just the "cardboard" version don't necessarily care about these implementations.


So, if I only own the digital edition of the game, and have a rules question, where do I go ? The BGG entry or the VGG entry ?

VGG. or BGG. I am not saying it is right or wrong, all I am saying is they have an established protocol, not some nefarious plan of censorship. I think you can (if it isn't already) linked.

Personally, I would prefer digital versions of game's be classified as a "version" of the cardboard so that rule questions can be answered.


Of course, there a number of us that have been saying this for a long time.

Mine was more, if you want, a rethorical question to highlight the fact that it makes perfect sense to consolidate discussions of the same boardgame, same rule-set, etc, you know, together.

Fragmentation of information/resources is a bad idea here. This cannot be stressed enough !

Do we see separate sections in Amazon reviewing digital/physical "versions" of a book ? What about discussions/reviews on "deluxe" or "anniversary" editions ? Should they be listed separately ?

Now, editions on other languages are grouped together and listed on the main boardgame page ... you have to wonder what is more useful, no? (not saying it is wrong, I actually think it makes perfect sense, but you get my point)
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Drew Spencer
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LastFootnote wrote:
I don't really understand the point of VGG in the first place. Who thought that was a good idea? They're competing against a bunch of other well-established communities and as far as I can tell are offering nothing new. Why in the world wouldn't I just use GameFAQs instead?


Ask the people on VGG. You'll get answers. A short one, for the purposes of this thread, is that VGG has a better sense of community, especially in the realm of retro games, than other video game sites.
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David desJardins
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Octavian wrote:
As soon as the official app is released and there's an entry for it we will move the Goko threads to the new entry. As it is, these discussions are still a better fit in the current incorrect iOS entry than they are in the board game entry.


ROFL. I think we've passed the point where we can pretend that Octavian even believes what he's saying. It's more relevant to some completely different app than it is to the board game it's implementing?? Next you'll tell me it's more relevant to Diablo III than to the Dominion board game, because the key characteristic is that they are both played on computers.
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It's going to be on VGG ... once we finish our redesign we can work on linking up the appropriate forums from the various related games.

Also VGG has a pretty amazing user built database, collection tracker and mature community. Are there other sites track your collection and allow you to rate them? I don't know of any myself.
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bmacfarlane wrote:
Categorically false. There's no way threads about some company's allegedly shitty digital implementation of a board game are more of a fit in an entirely unrelated individual's apparently - never used it myself - fine digital implementation of the same board game. That's just going to confuse the issue and associate the unrelated individual with the allegedly shitty company.


To you perhaps. To the thousands of us who have no interest in goku yet keep getting subscription updates about it mixed with actual dominion content, it's categorically true.

Yes, putting it in the other app is sub-optimal. But since that app is dead now, it's not a horrible spot for it. It's certainly better than in the dominion topics.
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LastFootnote wrote:
I don't really understand the point of VGG in the first place. Who thought that was a good idea? They're competing against a bunch of other well-established communities and as far as I can tell are offering nothing new. Why in the world wouldn't I just use GameFAQs instead?


I have been on GamFAQs for over 7 years. I have not contributed a thing on that site other than forum posts.

I have been on VGG for about two years now with 46 reviews entered, 28 geeklists, 413 images, 720 videos linked, and 551 video games entered into the database and that is just to date. I am currently working on a number of additional submissions.

So to answer your question, yes VGG offers me something that GameFAQs does not.
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David desJardins
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
But since that app is dead now, it's not a horrible spot for it. It's certainly better than in the dominion topics.


You're begging the question if you assume that no one wants to read the threads so they should be in the least visible place. By this logic, they would be better posted under some board game from 1992 that no one plays any more, because that way they wouldn't bother you either.
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