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Subject: Based on the rules, what do you think of the expansion? rss

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Scott Wheelock
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As the rules have been posted, I thought I'd see what people thought of the expansion, which comes in three parts: the new personalities, new buildings, and outlaws.

The new personalities all seem pretty cool. I wouldn't have a clue how they're balanced; I haven't even played the base game enough to tell if the main personalities are balanced (though they seem it). Of all of them, though, I think that the Singer and Auctioneer seem the most interesting, although the Singer is a bit rules-referency with the restrictions on where you can place the 'no duel' tokens.

The new buildings are interesting... the Town Hall and Station both seem lucrative, with big point swings, but they take a lot of capital; a permanent cowboy (if you manage to keep it) for the Town Hall, and a ton of roads for the Station (and that's assuming that you then are able to buy the parcel and building).

I'm not too keen on the outlaw rules, though. They seem to add a lot of randomness to a game that is primarily about skill. On the other hand, maybe they play really well... hard to say from reading the rules, though mocking them up with spare cowboys would be easy.

Thoughts?
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Michael Mesich
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It's interesting to read.

Then I remember that I love the base game (with the indian and on the river side) that I've never even played with the red-side of the tiles!

So I'm kind of academically interested, but still a bit leery. Particularly when it comes to the townhomes.
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Scott Wheelock
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mmesich wrote:
So I'm kind of academically interested, but still a bit leery. Particularly when it comes to the townhomes.


I'd imagine that the parcel space you save using townhouses gets used up by the schools.

I hope someone gets to play it soon, and gives us a couple of detailed session reports.
 
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Jon Day
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New roles are good - my groups have always played on the red side of the existing tiles as they seemed much more balanced (really the only issue is the white side Sheriff who almost breaks the game).
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Peter Dahlstrom
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Looks like a mixed, but generally good, bag to me.

Like others, I'm satisfied with the basic game and don't think it needs more - but, on the other hand, if more & different can be added without a lot of overhead... well, a little different flavor would be nice.

I expect that if I can get the expansion (meaning it shows up for a not inexorbatent price at my OLGS of choice) I will, and I'll introduce pieces bit by bit, starting with the ones with easy rules and/or cool ideas.

(I'll color code where red = stop / green = go / yellow = caution)

Townhouses

Cool idea. Easy to incorporate. Possibly a bit too powerful, but mitigated by other players being able to horn in on the action.

The Roles (basic side)

Pretty easy to incorporate, although may need to somewhere write down where the singer can place the no-fight tokens.

I think the Doctor & Auctioneer are very cool ideas. If the Singer works out well, it's also a cool idea. The rest look ok, interesting, but not ground breaking.

I have some reservations about some roles, but none look obviously overpowered, so I'd give them a try.

Prospector: the mine strategy is pretty good - will this make it more powerful / be too disruptive to it?
Singer: can this be used to avoid conflict too much?
Gunsmith & Governor: useful enough to get picked?
Doctor: too disruptive?

(we already use the Indian, even though he doesn't get used much)

BWII (buildings with increased income)

We never get income on buildings up to their limits, so probably just won't get used.

Buildings

Troublesome to incorporate.

Not sure about the ideas in them.

Will use them:

School: I like the idea, shouldn't be hard to explain.
General Store: Cool idea of gaining 1/2 income from other players' buildings, and follows the city building convention - will use it.

On the fence:

Station: I like the idea, but am a little worried it's too powerful, and, unlike all other city buildings, you don't add a house with it, making it break the city buildings convention.
City Hall: Cool idea, definitely provokes conflict! The description on paper's pretty long, but boils down to simpler ideas. Since it's placed immediately when pulled from the bag, players don't need to prepare for placement. Still, it is very different from other buildings.
Blacksmith: The idea isn't as interesting as others, but it is easy to explain and it looks harmless enough.

More than likely, I'll use just one of the "on the fence" building types per game, until we get used to them, just to avoid rules overload.

Outlaws

Yeah, outlaws look like they add too much randomness. We dislike randomness so much we use the tiles, not the dice. Maybe variant "less luck" rules could be made for them, but I'm not playing them as is.


Now that I've gone through all of them, in addition to just extra flavor, I see a few things that provide extra tactical & strategic options - a good thing, I think.
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Scott Wheelock
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pdahl wrote:
Station: I like the idea, but am a little worried it's too powerful, and, unlike all other city buildings, you don't add a house with it, making it break the city buildings convention.


Not adding a house is odd, I agree, since someone has to staff the station. Maybe it's a part-time job.

Something that I hadn't considered with the Station is that it could encourage road-building more than without it, which would open up the board more when it comes to placing houses. Am I on target with this? I haven't played CC much, but the times I have, the roads built were minimal; just enough to open up two more squares for buildings. The houses tended to get really clumped (much like a city, I suppose).
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Peter Dahlstrom
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swheelock wrote:
Something that I hadn't considered with the Station is that it could encourage road-building more than without it, which would open up the board more when it comes to placing houses. Am I on target with this? I haven't played CC much, but the times I have, the roads built were minimal; just enough to open up two more squares for buildings. The houses tended to get really clumped (much like a city, I suppose).


I'm no expert, but I'm not optimistic it'll have that effect. If I placed the station on the board, I would wait before placing the roads, since the bonus is given if there's a road crossing the board at the end of the game, and if I wait I can possibly use roads other people build and avoid opening up areas for other players. I expect that philosophy will delay the benefit of the roads until the last couple of turns. That would still change the game, but much less than it sounds like you're thinking.
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I like the ideas and the expansion price seems to be quite ok.... I am going with it, for sure.
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samuel
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Does anyone know whether the carson city base game reprint will have errata fix etc? Since i heard the master print rulebook is pretty bad
 
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Pol Michiels
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Outlaws means it becomes much harder to use a no-guns strategy. Wether this is a good or bad thing much depends on your playstyle, I guess. The fact that defeating them gives victory points makes them very much palatable to me, since they are not just there to screw you over for no gain, at least.
 
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Todd
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so far it sounds good but I hope we can add what we like and leave out the other stuff if we want.
like use the personallities and leave out the building ect.
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Peter Dahlstrom
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ldsdbomber wrote:
what is the randomness with the outlaws you're worried about? remember that you can choose as players to confront the outlaws or not, so they just become an extra point scoring action space, in the meantime if you ignore them they tend to move towards the more valuable buildings, acting as a kind of balancing act to players who've put up those buildings in the town, which also feels nicely in theme, or is it the blocking off of random parcel grids that you're leery about?

Even though they had nothing at all to do with any of my input on the new character roles etc, I'll have to admit the Outlaws are the addition I'm MOST looking forward to!


Hey, don't get me wrong - I like a lot of what's in the expansion, and will definitely pick it up. I definitely appreciate the work put into it. The Outlaws may just not be for me.


There are 2 reasons I am wary of the randomness of the Outlaws:

1) The randomness is concentrated in just a few placement rolls - 3 rounds, 1-3 outlaws means 3-9 rolls - so the rolls don't have a chance to even out over time.

2) The effect of a bad roll can be very bad. Maybe it's just us, but the games we play are very tight, and, honestly, losing 1/2 my income from one of my richer buildings, even for a single round, is a serious set-back and could mean the game.

There are mitigations, but I don't think they're enough. The outlaws move to the richest nearby building - but slowly, and we tend to build in clumps any way, so it would stay on one player's buildings even then. They do provide VP to the player that defeats them - but from the numbers, I think it'll be less than I could make with the lost income, and there's the opportunity cost lost by taking an action. And strength 8-13 is no joking matter, so it may cost more than just 1 action to defeat them.


Maybe it's our play-style, maybe I'm missing a defence against them, or, hey, maybe I'm just taking it too seriously, but that's why I don't like the randomness of the Outlaws. I'm open to being convinced the luck isn't as bad as I'm seeing!


I'm curious myself: what it is you're looking forward to in the Outlaws? What do you expect they'll do to the game?

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Christopher Boat
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I love the concept of the Outlaws but I agree that they may add an element of randomness that won't always be welcome in the game. It looks like they can get rather strong, but I also think some of the new buildings will help balance it out. Also, some of the older buildings, such as the jail and church will become much more prized acquisitions.

My game group doesn't play very violently in Carson City. The only people that get too gun crazy in our games tend to be the people in last place during the last couple rounds. I can definitely see the Outlaws making everyone compete more for the gun spaces/buildings, while taking the attention off of stealing other player's income. For my group, that will be a welcome change.

Overall: The expansion is going to have a huge effect on the feel of the game. The original game felt like a struggle to get points where now I think there will be a lot more sources. Definitely interested to see how players adapt to that.
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Todd
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So far I like everything for the most part, I will be buying it after my group gets better acquainted with the base game, we have not played it enough yet to want to add to it yet, but I will still buy it for later.
 
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Amos
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jond wrote:
New roles are good - my groups have always played on the red side of the existing tiles as they seemed much more balanced (really the only issue is the white side Sheriff who almost breaks the game).


My copy of the rules exhort players to pick and choose red/yellow abilities at will. As in play with a mix of both sides instead of sticking all red or yellow.

I haven't tried the red sides yet either. But some of them look kind of 'eh'. For instance the captain turns from being able to buy more cowboys to being able to buy more revolvers. It just seems like too much of a repeat of the outlaw's utility. And then the outlaw is nerfed on revolvers but given a slightly higher gold limit (also odd).
 
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Christopher Boat
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amodman wrote:
jond wrote:
New roles are good - my groups have always played on the red side of the existing tiles as they seemed much more balanced (really the only issue is the white side Sheriff who almost breaks the game).


My copy of the rules exhort players to pick and choose red/yellow abilities at will. As in play with a mix of both sides instead of sticking all red or yellow.

I haven't tried the red sides yet either. But some of them look kind of 'eh'. For instance the captain turns from being able to buy more cowboys to being able to buy more revolvers. It just seems like too much of a repeat of the outlaw's utility. And then the outlaw is nerfed on revolvers but given a slightly higher gold limit (also odd).


In my experience it's definitely more interesting to mix them up. We almost never play with the yellow side of the sheriff as we find it to be the most unbalanced role. We almost never play with the red side of the Captain or Outlaw however. Roles like the Grocer and Indian will flip depending on our mood though.
 
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