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Subject: CO2 and Vinhos: which of the two is the heaviest? rss

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For those who played/playested: I gave a look to the rules and Co2 looks lighter than Vinhos. True or it's just an impression of mine? I like heavy games, but my few buddies are just occasional gamers do they can be easily scared (luckily this game has also a solo version)...
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Jack Francisco
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I can't imagine any Euro being much heavier than Vinhos.
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Tadeu Zubaran
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senorcoo wrote:
I can't imagine any Euro being much heavier than Vinhos.

I honestly don`t understand why that is the common perception.
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Clyde W
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tkzubaran wrote:
senorcoo wrote:
I can't imagine any Euro being much heavier than Vinhos.

I honestly don`t understand why that is the common perception.
What's a heavier euro, in your opinion?
 
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Daniel Indru
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I always judge games by 2 criteria when assessing how heavy they are: rules complexity and strategic depth.

If I were to use a scale from 1 (simple/easy) to 5 (complex/difficult), this would be my assessment for several heavy Euros:

Vinhos: 4/5 for complexity, 4/5 for strategy.
Antiquity: 5/5 for complexity, 5/5 for strategy.
Through the Ages: 5/5 for complexity, 5/5 for strategy.
Die Macher: 4/5 for complexity, 4/5 for strategy.
Brass: 4/5 for complexity, 4/5 for strategy.
Caylus: 3/5 for complexity, 4/5 for strategy.
Indonesia: 4/5 for complexity, 3/5 for strategy.
Age of Steam: 3/5 for complexity, 4/5 for strategy.

And then there's this one, in its own league:
GO: 1/5 for complexity, 6/5 for strategy.

So CO2 may have lighter rules, but the strategic depth cannot be fully assessed until you play it.
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Gleb Semenjuk
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senorcoo wrote:
I can't imagine any Euro being much heavier than Vinhos.

What's so heavy with Vinhos? You take the best wineries, make the best wine, block the best positions on the table, sell the most expensive wine, ship the most expensive wine, get best helpers, win fairs, get most VP, WIN...
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Clyde W
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Yes, if only it were actually that simple.
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Jim Andrew
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so, no one answered the question yet? i'm curious as well
 
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Vital Lacerda
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2010 - Vinhos, 2012 - CO2, 2014 - kanban, 2015 - The Gallerist, 2016 - Vinhos Deluxe, 2017 - Lisboa, 2018 - Escape Plan, CO2 Second Chance and Dragon Keepers - Maybe: 2019 - ROTW Portugal and On Mars, 2020 - Kanban Deluxe Edition, Mercato
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Following Daniel scale, I would say:
CO2: 3/5 for complexity, 4/5 for strategy.
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Daniel Indru
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So it has a simpler set of rules compared to Vinhos, but is just as difficult when it comes to strategy. Can't wait!

"Daniel scale"... I like it.
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Ken Dilloo
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Gleb wrote:
senorcoo wrote:
I can't imagine any Euro being much heavier than Vinhos.

What's so heavy with Vinhos? You take the best wineries, make the best wine, block the best positions on the table, sell the most expensive wine, ship the most expensive wine, get best helpers, win fairs, get most VP, WIN...


Hey, yeah, and I would be in the NBA, if I could dribble, pass, shoot, and play defense.
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The Kelvis
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bigloo33 wrote:
Gleb wrote:
senorcoo wrote:
I can't imagine any Euro being much heavier than Vinhos.

What's so heavy with Vinhos? You take the best wineries, make the best wine, block the best positions on the table, sell the most expensive wine, ship the most expensive wine, get best helpers, win fairs, get most VP, WIN...


Hey, yeah, and I would be in the NBA, if I could dribble, pass, shoot, and play defense.


Yeah, but you've got the height requirement easily covered, damie...
 
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Gleb Semenjuk
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bigloo33 wrote:
Gleb wrote:
senorcoo wrote:
I can't imagine any Euro being much heavier than Vinhos.

What's so heavy with Vinhos? You take the best wineries, make the best wine, block the best positions on the table, sell the most expensive wine, ship the most expensive wine, get best helpers, win fairs, get most VP, WIN...


Hey, yeah, and I would be in the NBA, if I could dribble, pass, shoot, and play defense.

You overcomplicate it. You only need to have 95% accuracy shooting from midfield.
 
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Jim Andrew
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djdano wrote:
I always judge games by 2 criteria when assessing how heavy they are: rules complexity and strategic depth.

If I were to use a scale from 1 (simple/easy) to 5 (complex/difficult), this would be my assessment for several heavy Euros:

Vinhos: 4/5 for complexity, 4/5 for strategy.
Antiquity: 5/5 for complexity, 5/5 for strategy.
Through the Ages: 5/5 for complexity, 5/5 for strategy.
Die Macher: 4/5 for complexity, 4/5 for strategy.
Brass: 4/5 for complexity, 4/5 for strategy.
Caylus: 3/5 for complexity, 4/5 for strategy.
Indonesia: 4/5 for complexity, 3/5 for strategy.
Age of Steam: 3/5 for complexity, 4/5 for strategy.

And then there's this one, in its own league:
GO: 1/5 for complexity, 6/5 for strategy.


imo the greatest thing about vinhos is it has much shorter gameplay than other games on equal complexity (manageable under 90mins)

djdano wrote:
So CO2 may have lighter rules, but the strategic depth cannot be fully assessed until you play it.


i agree
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Sutanto Joji
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I really think for the similar playtime, no other game is as long as Vinhos to teach. To play? The time is about right with the right people. But to teach, no matter what, took around 45-60 minutes.
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Paul M
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I've not played CO2, but wine is denser than carbon dioxide, therefore if the box sizes are similar, Vinhos will be heavier.

Hope that helps.
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Sky Zero
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joehn wrote:
I really think for the similar playtime, no other game is as long as Vinhos to teach. To play? The time is about right with the right people. But to teach, no matter what, took around 45-60 minutes.


I just taught the game at Gaming Hoopla and had everyone up and running in 10 minutes. Teach the 9 actions which are actually very simple and worry about the fair in year 3. I've taught the game 3 or 4 times now and it's worked every time.
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Duarte Conceicao
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Sorry for stepping in so late.

Since I've played both a few time I believe I can reply the OP question, in my opinion CO2 is in fact lighter than Vinhos.

Although I prefer heavier games that doesn't necessarily means that CO2 isn't a lovely experience, it is! In fact I think that it will appeal to a much broader audience (well not for those hate raters) than Vinhos, and would probably will have a larger print run.

If you finish it very fast and like meatier games ... well play 2 CO2 in a row

Good luck with the release in Essen Vital!

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i just think its awesome that the designer, Vital, is so active on these Forums - leaving input for his own games, and many others. So many designers never step foot in the BGG forums - even english speakers. So really - much appreciation to you, Vital. And thanks for making such amazing games for gamers.
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