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Subject: Legionary questions rss

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Trent Hamm
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After playing several games of this, I've noticed our group falling into some groupthink when it comes to Legionary.

Simply put, no one uses it. At all.

The biggest gripe everyone has is that it becomes a dead card in your hand after use. The rules, at least in the Black Box edition, make it very clear that the card should be backward in your hand and should NEVER leave your hand.

So, question one: we're playing it as though you can't discard it with Vomitorium and you can't take it with other Legionary actions. Is that right?

If that's correct, if you play Legionary a few times, you just wind up with a hand full of dead cards you can't use.

I'd really appreciate it if someone could spell out to me why it's good to play Legionary.
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Sounds like you're doing something wrong.

The legionary card used to lead/follow the role goes into the pool, just like all cards.

The card that doesn't leave your hand is the card used to call out which type of material. But it doesn't "never leave" your hand. It can leave when your neighbor calls for that color material, too. or when you play it to lead/follow.

Legionary is a great action, When lucky, it can be twice as effective as laborer. With the right buildings in play, it can be devastating, and it gets stronger with more players participating.

Here's how it works:

1. Lead legionary (put the card on your camp)
2. Others follow or think.
3. As leader, you show 1 + X cards in your hand (where X is the number of legionary clients you have) - these stay in your hand during the following steps!
4. You take from the POOL into your STOCKPILE one card matching the color of each shown card
5. You take from your left and right neighbors' HAND into your STOCKPILE one card matching the color of each shown card
6. Players that followed execute 3-5.
7. All cards used to lead follow (on the camp) go into the POOL.
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Wakefield Morys-Carter
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I'm slightly confused as to how you're playing legionary.

The legionary card (or Jack or petition cards) you use to activate the role goes on your camp card and ends up in the pool at the end of the turn.

The card you use to demand material is shown but stays in your hand. It could be anything (apart from a Jack).

The cards you receive from the pool and adjacent players go into your stockpile, not your hand.
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Jonathan Davison
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Quote:
The biggest gripe everyone has is that it becomes a dead card in your hand after use.


Like Clinton I must ask, "What does 'it' mean?" (Or was that "is"?)

When you take the Legionary action, the card used as a Role should go into the center pool at the end of your turn. The card you revealed to demand a resource matching that type goes back into your hand. And any cards acquired go into your Stockpile.

I'm not certain about a card "never leaving your hand". Where do you get that? I suppose rules for the Black Box could be different. I own the original cartoon version. But that seems like a significant difference.
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Jonathan C
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trenttsd wrote:
After playing several games of this, I've noticed our group falling into some groupthink when it comes to Legionary.

Simply put, no one uses it. At all.

The biggest gripe everyone has is that it becomes a dead card in your hand after use. The rules, at least in the Black Box edition, make it very clear that the card should be backward in your hand and should NEVER leave your hand.

So, question one: we're playing it as though you can't discard it with Vomitorium and you can't take it with other Legionary actions. Is that right?

If that's correct, if you play Legionary a few times, you just wind up with a hand full of dead cards you can't use.

I'd really appreciate it if someone could spell out to me why it's good to play Legionary.


I am afraid you misinterpret these words in the BB edition rules:
Black Box Rules wrote:
--the card you use to demand Materials never leaves your hand.


Seems pretty cut and dry, doesn't it? Well, this is not actually what it means. You discovered an annoying wording problem in the rules! It is a perhaps badly worded explanation which is intending to say,
a better way to say it wrote:
"the card color with which you demanded a material type during a legionary action...yeah..that one..well, you get it back after demanding."


It's that simple. The card doesn't become dead. Any card in your hand can always be used in subsequent turns to lead or follow roles, or as a material, or as a building, etc.
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Jonathan C
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Wake, it is exactly this wording that is slightly problematic:

Wake wrote:
The card you use to demand material is shown but stays in your hand.


Stays in your hand. How long? The rules say, it "never leaves your hand", which I always understood to mean "during this turn". But I totally understand why Trent got it wrong. Could be better stated on a subsequent edition of the rules.
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Trent Hamm
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Okay, this makes Legionary a lot better. So, you can use it to lead/follow/anything else after the Legionary action.
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Jonathan C
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trenttsd wrote:
Okay, this makes Legionary a lot better. So, you can use it to lead/follow/anything else after the Legionary action.


Yep, absolutely.
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out4blood wrote:
Sounds like you're doing something wrong.

The legionary card used to lead/follow the role goes into the pool, just like all cards.

The card that doesn't leave your hand is the card used to call out which type of material. But it doesn't "never leave" your hand. It can leave when your neighbor calls for that color material, too. or when you play it to lead/follow.

Legionary is a great action, When lucky, it can be twice as effective as laborer. With the right buildings in play, it can be devastating, and it gets stronger with more players participating.

Here's how it works:

1. Lead legionary (put the card on your camp)
2. Others follow or think.
3. As leader, you show 1 + X cards in your hand (where X is the number of legionary clients you have) - these stay in your hand during the following steps!
4. You take from the POOL into your STOCKPILE one card matching the color of each shown card
5. You take from your left and right neighbors' HAND into your STOCKPILE one card matching the color of each shown card
6. Players that followed execute 3-5.
7. All cards used to lead follow (on the camp) go into the POOL.


If you're following the written bb edition rules, then that's sort of a shame.

I tell people for step #3 to put the cards you're demanding on that "legionnaire mat". That way, it enforces the rule that you need to have the card in hand at the time of Legionnaire.

It also doesn't require people to remember what was demanded (as ridiculous as it sounds for something that happened just a few seconds ago).

If you show just the cards from your hand, you run the risk of showing too much of your hand

If you take the card(s) out of your hand for a brief moment, you may as well consider using the mat.

.

For strategy, Also add that if you have a neighbor who's trying to finish a say... purple building and has multiple Craft actions, you can slow him down by double Legionnaire and demanding 2 Marble to put the screws to him.
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trenttsd wrote:
The rules, at least in the Black Box edition, make it very clear that the card should be backward in your hand and should NEVER leave your hand.

What game are you talking about?
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You can never have too much ambiguity when writing game rules.
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NateStraight wrote:
You can never have too much ambiguity when writing game rules.


Boy, one could take that statement one of several different ways ...
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looleypalooley wrote:
NateStraight wrote:
You can never have too much ambiguity when writing game rules.


Boy, one could take that statement one of several different ways ...


I like my Ambiguity Straight UP!!
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Samuel Hinz
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While we are at it, can I just confirm to solidify my understanding.

If I have 4 legionary actions, I must use a different card to demand each time, meaning to use 4 legionary actions I would have to also have 4 cards in my hand at the time of performing those actions.

And not say have 1 marble in my hand and use that 1 card for all 4 legionary actions?
 
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abodi wrote:
While we are at it, can I just confirm to solidify my understanding.

If I have 4 legionary actions, I must use a different card to demand each time, meaning to use 4 legionary actions I would have to also have 4 cards in my hand at the time of performing those actions.
Yes

abodi wrote:
And not say have 1 marble in my hand and use that 1 card for all 4 legionary actions?
Negative... if you want to demand 4 material, you'll need 4 material from your hand (or its equivalent... some exp card). If you want to demand 4 Marble's worth of material, you'll need to show/place 4 marble on the mat.

If you don't have enough cards, you can always just pass on some of the Legionnaire actions. U don't have to use all of them.
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Jordan " ; " Czop
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You are definitely using the card wrong. Relying heavily on the Legionary action combined with the Merchant as a Patron is one of my favorite strategies.
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looleypalooley wrote:
Wake, it is exactly this wording that is slightly problematic:

Wake wrote:
The card you use to demand material is shown but stays in your hand.


Stays in your hand. How long? The rules say, it "never leaves your hand", which I always understood to mean "during this turn". But I totally understand why Trent got it wrong. Could be better stated on a subsequent edition of the rules.


The description is written poorly...

Wondering if it's written this way in the better I.V. Edition?

Why O WHY do they always have to screw with rewriting rules that were already clearly written?

Wake's comment makes sense to understand the card you USE to demand material (the Legionnaire) stays in hand[incorrectly written]
Interpreted as written CORRECTLY
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ASLChampion wrote:
Why O WHY do they always have to screw with rewriting rules that were already clearly written?


That is one of the great mysteries in life. There were numerous requests for different art. Who asked for the card text and rules to be rewritten?
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trenttsd wrote:
Okay, this makes Legionary a lot better. So, you can use it to lead/follow/anything else after the Legionary action.


Note also that the card doesn't go backwards in your hand. It just goes [i]back[i] in your hannd.
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Barticus88 wrote:
ASLChampion wrote:
Why O WHY do they always have to screw with rewriting rules that were already clearly written?


That is one of the great mysteries in life. There were numerous requests for different art. Who asked for the card text and rules to be rewritten?


Whoa whoa Barticus, let's be fair. This Legionary description is taken almost word-for-word from the I.V. edition rules:

Quote:
Once you have completed the action pick up your hand and turn
over the Order card you revealed so that it is no longer showing
-- the card you use to demand materials never leaves your hand


http://www.cambridgegames.com/documents/GTR_Rulebook_Web.pdf

It seems this unfortunate choice of wording is what we could call "legacy".

It is confusing to new players in a couple different ways.

First, the card you are demanding does technically leave your hand, temporarily, when you place it on the "Rome Demands!" card.

Second, the sentence could concievably be interpreted as meaning that the demanded material becomes, as the OP thought, a "dead card", which is clearly not what is intended.

"Stay calm, pile on" --> "Stay calm, carry on."
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Quote:
Once you have completed the action pick up your hand and turn
over the Order card you revealed so that it is no longer showing
-- the card you use to demand materials never leaves your hand



Ok, since more body of the "accursed" line is shown, I must say SHAME on the OP and ANY gamer to misinterpret this.


GAMERS need to THINK first (not game terms in THINKING) but actually using your brain.

The Legionnaire ROLE is taking stuff from other people. WHY O WHY would you "Consume" anything in the process?!?!? Craftsman/Architect will OBVIOUSLY consume... Cmon, really... Read the entire sequence. The reason why you have to (SHOULD) put your entire hand down on the ROME DEMANDS spot, is to AVOID PUTTING the cards gained INTO YOUR HAND. I see it all the time with new and experienced players. IT'S natural to take cards and put them in your hand ...99% of games do this.

So, please think of the theme and cause for the action and make REAL WORLD reasons as to why you wouldn't do something....

ASL is an exception, some things in their are stupid and NOT real world by any means, but ASLers are in their own little world...Just coming out of their crypts to see the Sun every 7 years...

Also, Please Post most of the body of the rule, otherwise, a single sentence taken out of context WILL be misinterpreted.
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Jonathan C
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ASLChampion wrote:

Quote:
Once you have completed the action pick up your hand and turn
over the Order card you revealed so that it is no longer showing
-- the card you use to demand materials never leaves your hand



Ok, since more body of the "accursed" line is shown, I must say SHAME on the OP and ANY gamer to misinterpret this.


GAMERS need to THINK first (not game terms in THINKING) but actually using your brain.

The Legionnaire ROLE is taking stuff from other people. WHY O WHY would you "Consume" anything in the process?!?!? Craftsman/Architect will OBVIOUSLY consume... Cmon, really... Read the entire sequence. The reason why you have to (SHOULD) put your entire hand down on the ROME DEMANDS spot, is to AVOID PUTTING the cards gained INTO YOUR HAND. I see it all the time with new and experienced players. IT'S natural to take cards and put them in your hand ...99% of games do this.

So, please think of the theme and cause for the action and make REAL WORLD reasons as to why you wouldn't do something....

ASL is an exception, some things in their are stupid and NOT real world by any means, but ASLers are in their own little world...Just coming out of their crypts to see the Sun every 7 years...

Also, Please Post most of the body of the rule, otherwise, a single sentence taken out of context WILL be misinterpreted.



Let's aim to be constructive, instead of needlessly deriding the OP for having a question about the game. This attitude just reinforces the "snobbish" stereotype from which board gamers often suffer.
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looleypalooley wrote:
Second, the sentence could concievably be interpreted as meaning that the demanded material becomes, as the OP thought, a "dead card"

I disagree. Only a psychotic rules lawyer could try to push for that meaning. The simple fact that playing that way completely breaks the game in multiple ways is more than enough to put down any ambiguity.

The cards you show while executing a Legionary action never "leave your hand", because they still count as cards in your hand. OBVIOUSLY they will leave your hand later, when you use them or someone else yanks them with their Legionary action. The language in the rules is clearly saying how to execute your Legionary action, not some bizarre constraint on how the whole rest of the game will go.
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Trent Hamm
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xethair wrote:
Only a psychotic rules lawyer could try to push for that meaning. The simple fact that playing that way completely breaks the game in multiple ways is more than enough to put down any ambiguity.


Thanks for calling my entire game group "psychotic rules lawyers". We appreciate it, since we actually read the rules collectively and came to the same conclusion based on the poor wording in the Black Box rulebook. Thanks for letting us know that we're psychotic.

Also, it didn't really break the game. We just all avoided the Legionary role, and it was still enjoyable.
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The rule is badly written, y'all.

Not for the reason of the ambiguity of the word "never", but for the reason that the physical manipulation described is unnecessary to perform the action. It is, as someone said, simply a good mnemonic device to use to help you remember that you don't put the demanded cards into your hand even though they're coming from the other players' hands. In fact, the entire "Rome Demands!" mat is unnecessary and simply a mnemonic device. Writing rules in terms of physical manipulation of bits is generally a very good practice [see Through The Ages], but not when the physical manipulation described is unnecessary to the performance of the game's mechanisms. The rule he missed wasn't a mechanistic one, but one related to an unnecessarily complex physical manipulation: "Once you have completed the action, pick up your hand and turn over the card you revealed so that it is no longer showing--the card you use to demand materials never leaves your hand." Had he not missed this, the card would not have remained backward in his hand, and the [also unnecessary] statement concerning "never leaves" would have been unambiguous.

The rule ought to have been written as:

- For each Legionary action you are allowed, reveal a card from your hand and announce "Rome demands [name of material(s)]". You must reveal all allowed cards at once; you may not reveal the same card for multiple Legionary actions on the same turn.

- Blah blah blah collect cards etc

- After you have completed the Legionary action, return the cards you revealed to your hand. ["They are not discarded to the pool with the Legionary you led / followed with" would have been preferable to "never leave your hand".]

The fact that he got confused and did something that sounds silly is neither a sign of ignorance or insanity. Nor does appealing to the "real world" help in any way. There are plenty of game mechanisms that don't make functional or real world sense. When reading game rules, you have to take them at face value, and you are reading them without the benefit of knowledge of the context of game flow that experienced players of the game have. For all Trent knew, it might have been the intention and might have made sense that cards used to demand fill up space in your hand. There are similar mechanisms in some other games [Snow Tails, for instance, with the "dents"; Dominion with the "curses"]. The rules were not concise enough, and depended on understanding a procedural element [putting your hand down, then picking it back up] that was irrelevant to the intended mechanism.
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