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Subject: BGG Tournament: Can't Stop, Discussion Thread rss

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Tony Ackroyd
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A user called Jenks used to run some Yucata tournaments. Having become a Yucata addict over the last year I am thinking it would be a fun thing to do.
People seem to be enjoying the Roll Through the Ages Tournament I initiated (which is still open to new joiners -> here) so I thought I'd kick off a couple more.
This will be a self-maintaining tournament. In the future I (or someone else) may kick off something a bit more formal like a double-elimination tournament.
The games I've picked are incredibly quick to play on Yucata, are fun and easy to learn.

This thread is where the rules, contest and games can be discussed, keeping the geeklist relatively clean as a focus just for the games.

You can see the geeklist here:
BGG Tournament: Can't Stop
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Scott Russell
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how do we score ties?
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Tony Ackroyd
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qzhdad wrote:
how do we score ties?

Are there ties in this game? I guess there must be if you are asking.
Half points seem fair but messy.
I would go for the ties getting the higher points of the position they tie for. Thoughts?
 
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Ron Lacer
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How can there be ties? When someone scores a third column on their turn, the game ends immediately and they win.
 
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Al Ross
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rocksnrolls wrote:
How can there be ties? When someone scores a third column on their turn, the game ends immediately and they win.


For second or third place.
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Ron Lacer
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Albatros28215 wrote:
rocksnrolls wrote:
How can there be ties? When someone scores a third column on their turn, the game ends immediately and they win.


For second or third place.


Oh yeah. Guess I should have read the thread more closely blush
 
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Carl Bussema
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I recommend:

Tied 2nd-3rd: +0.5 each
Tied 3rd-4th: -0.5 each
Tied 2nd,3rd, and 4th: 0 each
 
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Yours Truly,
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There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
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I like the idea of "generous" ties.
So, for the scoring Tony set up
(1st gets you +2 points, 2nd gets you +1, 3rd zero, 4th, -1.)
Tied for 2nd gets you +1
Tied for 3rd gets you zero
Tied for 4th is impossible whistle (right?)

Easy to remember.
Straightforward.
 
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Tony Ackroyd
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Poll
What do you prefer?
Generous Ties (take the higher point value)
Precise Ties (share the points, so get 0.5 points or -0.5 points)
Don't Know
      14 answers
Poll created by 1000rpm
 
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Carl Bussema
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Technically this could come up in Z-Dice or RTTA too including 1st place ties.

So in general, the solution is adding up all points for tied players, then dividing by # of players.

1st & 2nd: 1.5
1st - 2nd - 3rd: 1
All four: +0.5 each
 
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Carl Bussema
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
I like the idea of "generous" ties.
So, for the scoring Tony set up
(1st gets you +2 points, 2nd gets you +1, 3rd zero, 4th, -1.)
Tied for 2nd gets you +1
Tied for 3rd gets you zero
Tied for 4th is impossible whistle (right?)

Easy to remember.
Straightforward.


Leads to score inflation. Suddenly game X is giving out more points than game Y. If the spreadsheet is doing all the work anyway, it's not an issue of having to worry about tracking the math.
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WDP
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I agree with InfoCynic completely.

But it seems to me that, with this game in particular, it's really very easy to avoid both the fractional arithmetic (if we really want to do that) and the problem with ties: just assign tourney points based on the number of completed columns.

If you complete 3 columns, you get 3 points.
If you complete 2 columns, you get 2 points.
If you complete 1 column, you get 1 point.
If you complete 0 columns, you get 0 points.

Or if you want to have fewer points in the tourney, award tourney points equal to the number of completed columns minus 1.

This will yield more points in some games than in others. In fact, the variance will be quite a bit greater. But it should reflect a meaningful difference in ability, rather than the seemingly random effect of whether or not two people tied for last place in a game.

This would have the added bonus of giving extra points to a person who wins with 4 columns instead of merely 3.

Whether we adopt this scoring method or not, though, if we're tracking the tournament with a spreadsheet, I strongly recommend we report our game results as raw scores instead of tourney points. That means all the player has to do is copy and paste from the automated results message. The spreadsheet will do all the calculation for us.

Boldface included to aid the reader in seeing my main point more easily in my somewhat lengthy post.
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Tony Ackroyd
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Poll
Select all the options you like most
Generous Ties (take the higher point value)
Precise Ties (share the points, so get 0.5 points or -0.5 points)
A point for each column completed
A point for each column completed, minus 1
Don't Know
      14 answers
Poll created by 1000rpm
 
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Yours Truly,
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There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
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I don't see my name on that automated scoresheet thingee. Is someone going to go through the Can't Stop Tourney Geeklist and add all the players, or do we have to each request to be added individually? The impression I got is those are all the RTTA players in the Can't Stop spreadsheet.
 
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Yours Truly,
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Also: from what I understand the scoring is cumulative. So, to do well you really have to do the max 2 simultaneous games.

Would it be possible to keep track of the average score-per-game as well and also show those standings?
That way those who for example prefer to only do 1 game at a time won't be automatically relegated to at least the middle of the pack. As an alternative way to track success it would be interesting to compare the two types of standings.

EDIT: and thinking about it further, ideally for the average score there would be a minimum number of games (maybe 3? 4?) in order to even appear in the standings. That would be easy to put in a formula for, right?
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Carl Bussema
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If you need a new player added you have to GM me either the name(s) to be added or your Google account so you can have permissions. Despite claims to the contrary, I have not yet been able to get a spreadsheet locked down so "anyone" can edit a range but not the entire sheet. So to prevent people from thinking they should manually enter data in the "Players" sheet, I have it locked down.

As for the rest, well, ideally, the tournament should be run zero-sum as something like +3 +1 -1 -3. But whatever Tony wants to decide for how the results will be displayed (sorted by PPG first, minimum thresholds) can be done. But I'm not messing with the sheet at all until we get some definitive answers.
 
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I updated the standings spreadsheet with the results of Table #2, which just completed.
However, although I put "TRUE" for 3rd and 4th tied, it gave one player 0 points and one player -2 points. So I will hold off on posting the updated standings on the standings thread until this bug is fixed.
 
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Carl Bussema
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It's not setup to do ANYTHING with ties yet. So it gives whoever was in 3rd the 0 and the 4th the -1, since 1000rpm has not yet said what he wants to do about ties... a decision would be nice, so I could update all the spreadsheets. I put the columns in so the data could be entered now, then once we know how the ties are being score we can update the formulas and post the updated standings.
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John Squires
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So how many games does one play in total? Seems like there should eventually be a limit otherwise it's probably just whoever played the most games who "wins".
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Carl Bussema
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Or you can just score PPG, but since it's not Zero-Sum, you theoretically just go up by playing more games. Another reason I prefer Zero-Sum, but it was changed early on in the RTTA tourney to promote playing more. There really isn't a lot of structure here. I do think having some sort of limit, like 20 games or something, and then moving on to a double-elim or something.
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Tony Ackroyd
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InfoCynic wrote:
It's not setup to do ANYTHING with ties yet. So it gives whoever was in 3rd the 0 and the 4th the -1, since 1000rpm has not yet said what he wants to do about ties... a decision would be nice, so I could update all the spreadsheets. I put the columns in so the data could be entered now, then once we know how the ties are being score we can update the formulas and post the updated standings.

Yeah, sorry about that. I was hoping for more concensus on the polls rather than me making an executive decision, but given that the two polls come out with different answers on the scoring it is a little difficult!

Okay, so here is the executive decision, which seems favoured by most on the latest poll: We will go for precise scoring, so there will be 0.5s on our scoreboard.
 
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Tony Ackroyd
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InfoCynic wrote:
Or you can just score PPG, but since it's not Zero-Sum, you theoretically just go up by playing more games. Another reason I prefer Zero-Sum, but it was changed early on in the RTTA tourney to promote playing more. There really isn't a lot of structure here. I do think having some sort of limit, like 20 games or something, and then moving on to a double-elim or something.

These are fair points. I have been thinking about imposing a maximum number of games limit. That would effectively put set an end point to the contest as the more eager players would hit that limit and stop playing. This would reduce the number of games being played as the number of new people joining will slow down (though I did post about the contest on Yucatta's forum, so that might mean a steady stream of people).

In some ways I didn't really want to set an end point as the contest was more about getting BGGers to play together rather than about completing some meta-game contest. But we seem to have achieved that aim so maybe it is time to start thinking about an end point to this.

I'm happy with a 20 game limit. That is quite a long way off for most of us - a few have already completed 10 games.
 
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And your thoughts on also showing "average" standings?

That way someone who does really well in 10 games won't be at such a huge disadvantage relative to someone who does really well in 20 games.
 
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Tony Ackroyd
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I think we should also be showing average points/game and I've said this before. Whether the spreadsheet can do it seems to be the question.
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1000rpm wrote:
I think we should also be showing average points/game and I've said this before. Whether the spreadsheet can do it seems to be the question.


Looks like the spreadsheet is currently calculating PPG (column D). What would be great is if it could be set up with a second "standings" column with a sorted PPG, to the right of the sorted Total Points column.
 
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