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Subject: How many ships are enough at 100 points? rss

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Jeff Herold
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This is *not* a "How many ships should I buy" question, it's a strategy/meta-strategy question about quality versus quantity

I've only got one full 100-point game under my belt, and it was 5 Imperials (4 regular TIEs and an x1 piloted by Maarek Stele) versus Wedge, Luke and a Red Squadron Pilot. As the Imperial player I started regretting bringing Stele in when I could have swapped him out for two more TIE Fighters. If my opponent had gone with a more swarm strategy (say 3 cheap pilots + Wedge) I think I would've really been hurting with only a one ship advantage.

I realize this is probably a question that will vary a lot from meta to meta, and how much your regular opponent(s) like having only a handful of ships with potent named characters versus having more, less skilled pilots - so I'm not sure what the best way to phrase what I'm asking really is. I guess a good place to start is "At what ratio of TIEs to Rebels do you think the number advantage really starts to pay off?"

As a related aside, has anyone tried something like just having 8 TIEs - like, say, 7 Academy Pilots and Backstabber - and if so, how has that worked out for you?
 
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Kurt Weihs
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We played two games today where I had a force of 4 TIE fighters and a TIE Adv.(Darth Vader,Back Stabber, Howlrunner, Mauler Mithel, and a Black Squadron generic) against three X-Wings (Biggs, Luke and Wedge) in the first game and three Y-Wings (Horton Salm and two Grey sqaudron generics) in the second. In both games we had two players handling the Imperial side and one person on the rebels. I think an additional ship on the rebel side would have been a big help for them. As it was, both games ended with Imperial victories (we were just playing head to head with no mission).
I felt comfortable with the number of Empire ships and we managed to maintain a lead through most of the game. If the rebels had had one more firing platform I think the Empire would have had a tougher time.
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Todd Warnken
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I think the rebels really need four ships. I would leave out torpedoes and take some low pilots with cheap droids plus one good pilot with a droid. Maybe squeeze in one Y-Wing.

For Empire forces I think one Advanced TIE makes sense but probably not a second.

Squadron building should really take off when we get the A-Wing and TIE Interceptor. I hope two X-Wings and two A-Wings make a competitive force.
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Jeff Paul
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It is going to be very interesting to see the meta strategies develop.

I think the answer is going to lie in the extremes. As well, the mid-level skill pilots may be a poorer choice.

The issue may be more about the fragility of your squadron. If you invest too much in one ship and it is lost, then you may have a hard time recovering.

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Alex Eding
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Mundane wrote:
I hope two X-Wings and two A-Wings make a competitive force.


They did some cool stuff together in The X-wing novels. I just finished book 5 (Wraith Squadron) and it was excellent.
 
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Todd Warnken
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LeximusMaximus wrote:
Mundane wrote:
I hope two X-Wings and two A-Wings make a competitive force.


They did some cool stuff together in The X-wing novels. I just finished book 5 (Wraith Squadron) and it was excellent.


Everyone keeps mentioning those novels. I think I will have to try one.
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Alex Eding
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Mundane wrote:
LeximusMaximus wrote:
Mundane wrote:
I hope two X-Wings and two A-Wings make a competitive force.


They did some cool stuff together in The X-wing novels. I just finished book 5 (Wraith Squadron) and it was excellent.


Everyone keeps mentioning those novels. I think I will have to try one.


They are excellent to go with this game, I think they got me even more pumped about it as the anticipation rose. I'mma go read now ;)
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I played a 100-point game Saturday where the sides looked like this:

Rebels
X-Wing: Luke with R2D2
X-Wing: Wedge with R2 droid
Y-Wing: Dutch with Ion Cannon and R2 droid

Imperials
Tie Advanced: Darth Vader with Squad Leader and Missiles
Tie Fighter: Night Beast
Tie Fighter: Mauler Mithel
Tie Fighter: Dark Curse
Tie Fighter: Winged Gundark

It was a fairly balanced and fun game. The Imperials wound up winning after they managed to focus-fire down the Y-Wing and its devastating Ion Cannon, but not without heavy losses.
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Three Headed Monkey
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I keep going over the pros and cons of the midrange generic fighters.

If you take an Obsidian Squadron TIE he will be going before Rookie Pilots, but if you are facing off against an elite, character driven force they might as well be academy pilots.

They're only a point more expensive though, so it doesn't seem that bad to upgrade. Those points add up though.

I think people will start to figure out powerful upgrade combos and squadron synergies and that may take precedence over number of ships taken.

I'm interested in the Interceptor. The A-wing fills a new niche for the Rebels, but the Interceptor really is just a better TIE. It doesn't really fill a new hole. It will be interesting to see how they are costed. They need to be moderately more expensive than ties otherwise I think they will simply replace them. Also, an Interceptor pilot with a skill of 9 would be nice. He would be a good target for the swarm tactics upgrade that isn't as expensive as Vader. I can imagine a swarm force filled with TIEs and interceptors, choosing to forgoe the expensive TIE advanced completely.

I can't wait to get this game and try all of this out!
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Jeff Herold
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In regards to the Interceptor - the one shot we have from FFG of all the components in that pack shows there's definitely a 9-skill pilot in there, probably Soontir Fel and the 1-skill generic pilot looks to weigh in around ... 18 points? Zooming in on the image is a little too fuzzy for me to be totally sure but I'm fairly confident. So 6 points for an extra attack die, the Boost action, and whatever changes in the maneuver dial there are.

My thinking so far has been that Vader is better off with Squad Leader than Swarm Tactics - giving off that second action where it's needed most seems pretty potent to me. Of course, if you setup a Swarm Tactics chain (especially with some Black Squadron pilots for minimum cost) that could be pretty potent, I'd imagine.
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Three Headed Monkey
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Bassoon Boy wrote:
In regards to the Interceptor - the one shot we have from FFG of all the components in that pack shows there's definitely a 9-skill pilot in there, probably Soontir Fel and the 1-skill generic pilot looks to weigh in around ... 18 points? Zooming in on the image is a little too fuzzy for me to be totally sure but I'm fairly confident. So 6 points for an extra attack die, the Boost action, and whatever changes in the maneuver dial there are.

My thinking so far has been that Vader is better off with Squad Leader than Swarm Tactics - giving off that second action where it's needed most seems pretty potent to me. Of course, if you setup a Swarm Tactics chain (especially with some Black Squadron pilots for minimum cost) that could be pretty potent, I'd imagine.


I chose Vader as an example because he is the only skill 9 pilot the Imperials have currently. Squad leader does seem built for him, though.
 
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Eric B.
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The trick to winning is to gang up on opponent's fighters one by one until they are destroyed. It doesn't do you any good if all of your opponent's TIES have one or two damage but aren't destroyed (barring critical damage, of course).


I think two things that will go a long way in squad building:

(1) Vader w/ Squad Leader: the ability late in the turn to give a vulnerable ally Evade+Evade or Evade+Focus or a Barrel Roll (perhaps the second Barrel Roll of the turn) will really help keep your ships alive and waste Rebel time.

(2) Biggs Darklighter: the ability to absorb lots of enemy attacks (hopefully at the ineffective Range 3) while keeping your allies temporarily safe will be really useful, I suspect, especially when Biggs has an agility-boosting or damage-reducing astromech.
 
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Richard van der Haak
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RogueThirteen wrote:
(perhaps the second Barrel Roll of the turn)


You can't perform two barrel rolls.
 
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Lunar Sol
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Or 2 Evades or any action twice.
 
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Three Headed Monkey wrote:
I keep going over the pros and cons of the midrange generic fighters.

If you take an Obsidian Squadron TIE he will be going before Rookie Pilots, but if you are facing off against an elite, character driven force they might as well be academy pilots.

They're only a point more expensive though, so it doesn't seem that bad to upgrade. Those points add up though.

I think people will start to figure out powerful upgrade combos and squadron synergies and that may take precedence over number of ships taken.

I'm interested in the Interceptor. The A-wing fills a new niche for the Rebels, but the Interceptor really is just a better TIE. It doesn't really fill a new hole. It will be interesting to see how they are costed. They need to be moderately more expensive than ties otherwise I think they will simply replace them. Also, an Interceptor pilot with a skill of 9 would be nice. He would be a good target for the swarm tactics upgrade that isn't as expensive as Vader. I can imagine a swarm force filled with TIEs and interceptors, choosing to forgoe the expensive TIE advanced completely.

I can't wait to get this game and try all of this out!


I'm in the same boat as you , three headed monkey! Can't wait either!
 
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Alex Eding
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rhaak wrote:
RogueThirteen wrote:
(perhaps the second Barrel Roll of the turn)


You can't perform two barrel rolls.


is that in line with Darth Vader's ability to take 2 actions? If I'm correct in my thinking, Assigning Squad Leader to Vader will allow you to spend one of Vader's actions to give another nearby friendly an extra action. So if Backstabber is close and already performed an Evade action on his pilot turn, can't Vader's Squad Leader give him another action? Could Backstabber use Evade again? Same goes for Barrel Roll if I understand the cards.
 
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Todd Warnken
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At the bottom of page 9 it states, "However, a ship cannot perform the same action more than once during a single game round (not even when the action is a "free action").
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a•TOM•a•ton
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So far I have not seen 8 Academy Pilots lose in 3 different 100 point games (96 point team with 8 12-point ships). While they only have pilot skill of 1, I wanted to see how it would do. They did amazingly well.

In the three games I have seen it used it hasn't lost. I ran them the first time, I played against it the second, and then I was an observer of the third game. It effectively negates the Y-Wing's Ion canon (go ahead and shut off 1 of my 8 attackers) and it can take out a Y-Wing pretty quickly.

You could easily upgrade one of the TIEs to use the higher priced pilot with the extra 4 points.
 
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Chris McDonald
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tpchid wrote:
So far I have not seen 8 Academy Pilots lose in 3 different 100 point games (96 point team with 8 12-point ships). While they only have pilot skill of 1, I wanted to see how it would do. They did amazingly well.

In the three games I have seen it used it hasn't lost. I ran them the first time, I played against it the second, and then I was an observer of the third game. It effectively negates the Y-Wing's Ion canon (go ahead and shut off 1 of my 8 attackers) and it can take out a Y-Wing pretty quickly.

You could easily upgrade one of the TIEs to use the higher priced pilot with the extra 4 points.


Yes, I suspect the TIE fighter is underpriced. 3 defense dice + evade + barrel roll makes them pretty survivable - not much (if any) less than an X-Wing, despite lacking shields.
 
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Eric B.
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I think the only reason 8x TIE builds won't dominate the tournament scene is because it's useless against other Imperial builds.

Having all Attack 2 against enemies with 3 Defense and Evade means you're not likely to ever hurt anything without luck on the rolls. Therefore, Imp builds that have ways to boost their attack dice (ie most of the unique TIE/ln pilots) may have a much-needed edge in the mirror match-up.

My sense of how many ships either faction will want for competitive builds:

REBELS:
3 Ships (X-Wing, Y-Wing, X-or-Y-Wing)
4 Ships (X-Wing, X-Wing, Y-Wing, Y-Wing)

IMPERIALS:
5-8 Ships (1 TIE/ad, rest TIE/ln)
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david boyett
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For rebels: It'll primarily be 3 ships with 2 being X's and the third going either as a Y or X. The occasional build will try and include a 4th ship, but it'll require that they'll go with some lower skill pilots and fewer droids. Could be a reasonable trade off either way.

For Imps: It seems so much less settled. I need to pick up a couple more TIE's before I can say definitively what i like, but getting to 100pts can be a problem if you want to go all TIEs. You need a minimum of 6 even using all named pilots and taking high cost skills. The 1 TIE-Adv Plus 4-5 TIE's will probably be the norm just due to the cost of the models.

I played a Head-to-Head Duel between a Tie-Adv with Maarek against Luke + R2 and very quickly took the X-wing out with a very good Roll on my opening Concussion missile hit. The first hit knocked down the shields and put a critical on the hull, with Maarek's special ability, that meant me picking a Direct hit. After that I just had to finish him off with my cannons on the following turn. So there's some serious potential of taking rebels out with an all Adv list.

Imps don't have to swarm to win. I bet even Imp on Imp fights with High Quality/low model count lists will find Swarms difficult but beatable. But I need to get a swarm first before I can test them out.

Getting to shoot first does help when going against swarms. But you're going to take some hits either way.

-DavicusPrime
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2 Y's with Ion Cannons, R2-D2 & R2 Astro and an X-Wing seem to be able to handle just about anything.
 
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Eric B.
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R5Don4 wrote:
2 Y's with Ion Cannons, R2-D2 & R2 Astro and an X-Wing seem to be able to handle just about anything.


Have you seen them beat an 8x Academy Pilot build? If so, that'd be the first report we have of that build losing (though I suspect it hasn't been played much because probably very few people have already bought that many TIEs).
 
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Scott Egan
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RogueThirteen wrote:
R5Don4 wrote:
2 Y's with Ion Cannons, R2-D2 & R2 Astro and an X-Wing seem to be able to handle just about anything.


Have you seen them beat an 8x Academy Pilot build? If so, that'd be the first report we have of that build losing (though I suspect it hasn't been played much because probably very few people have already bought that many TIEs).


I think you answered your own question.
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Mark Mitchell
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RogueThirteen wrote:
The trick to winning is to gang up on opponent's fighters one by one until they are destroyed. It doesn't do you any good if all of your opponent's TIES have one or two damage but aren't destroyed (barring critical damage, of course).


I think two things that will go a long way in squad building:

(1) Vader w/ Squad Leader: the ability late in the turn to give a vulnerable ally Evade+Evade or Evade+Focus or a Barrel Roll (perhaps the second Barrel Roll of the turn) will really help keep your ships alive and waste Rebel time.

(2) Biggs Darklighter: the ability to absorb lots of enemy attacks (hopefully at the ineffective Range 3) while keeping your allies temporarily safe will be really useful, I suspect, especially when Biggs has an agility-boosting or damage-reducing.


Hey rogue you know this is wrong? As other people have said you cant use the same action twice even if a free action. So evade+evade or double barrel rolling is not possible.
 
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