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Subject: Most ignored rule: "He announces which card he is playing..." rss

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Rob Gardiner
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Hi everybody. Long time lurker, first time poster.

My pet peeve is when experienced players play in silence. They play some cards, do some drawing and discarding, maybe trash a card, buy a card or two, then draw their next hand. WITHOUT SAYING A WORD. thumbsdown

This drives me batty. Often I have no idea what is going on. If they're on the other end of the table, I can't even see what they're playing. And if we're playing with the newer sets, I haven't memorized all the cards, so seeing what cards they play still doesn't tell me what is happening.

Sometimes if the player doing this is right next to me, I will pay close attention to what they're doing. Once or twice I've even caught mistakes that would have gone unnoticed if I wasn't watching. I don't think she was deliberately cheating, just being careless.

I was taught the game by veteran players who are very considerate towards newbies. They narrated every step of their turn, which helped us learn the game more quickly. My housemates and I have adopted this as a habit. And anyone who learns at our house picks up the habit because we lead by example. "Forage a Copper for two coins, plus four more for a Gold." "Play a Village for a Card and two Actions, play a Smithy for three Cards, eight is a Province." The game doesn't go any slower. Everyone (including newbies at the other end of the table) knows what is going on. There are fewer mistakes.

I think narrating one's turn is a courtesy to the other players. Sadly, the rules only require the announcement when playing an Action; counting additional actions out loud is a "you may", and narrating other parts of the turn are not mentioned in the rules at all.

When playing at home, I will not hesitate to ask the other players to narrate their turn. But when I'm a guest in someone else's home, or at a neutral location playing with someone else's cards, I don't feel like I have license to impose my "house rule". Usually I will say, "Can I ask you to narrate your turn?" and hope I don't come off as a rules nazi.

Thoughts?
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Jerry Martin
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We play for fun with friends. No one would cheat. I don't really expect it of anyone. Typically, we'll just say what cards we play and what we are buying. When playing with a new expansion then we may play it out, but annoucing how many actions I have seems redundant. Should be noted I don't play with new players often and would change my play to suit them.
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Jade Youngblood
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to each their own, play the way that makes you the most comfortable. I don't see any harm in bringing it up, beyond some feeling like the narration involves more work.

At my place we normally just call out the cards, I play village, use an action for smithy, and the last action for adventurer. (Show the money) I have 9 coin so I buy a province...If people want to know more they pick up the card in question and read it to themselves.
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Shawn George
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I don't think I've realized that this is actually a rule. I've always done it out of habit, both out of courtesy to other players, and to help me follow my own train of thought for the turn.

No, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask other players to do the same, especially if it's mentioned in the rules.
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Ben Bateson
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We had this discussion about Glory to Rome some time ago (before the Black Box was even thought about).

I'll reiterate what I posted there, because I really believe in it (and it's worth more thumbs).

d10-1 Open information should be open. Nearly all games are clear on what should be open information and what should be closed. If you play a card to the table with a special power written on it, every player has the right to know what is on that card. To many people it would be upside-down and it's unreasonable to expect them to read it. If you played the card and someone asked you what it said, you'd be well outside your rights to refuse.

d10-2 Experience isn't all you need. Now, sure, you have a regular game group and you've played Glory To Rome two hundred times. Last week everyone knew all the text on every card. But that's not to say someone hasn't had an aberration in the meantime. The best bridge players in the world forget their convention card from time to time. Operating on the unfounded assumption that everyone knows what is on your card is only going to lead to grief later. Besides, once you become good at a game, the rules don't change. PGA Tour golfers play under exactly the same rules as I do having a knock around at my local pitch'n'putt. Not announcing the cards when you've made a custom of it in the past is laziness at best and poor manners at worst.

d10-3 Just because it doesn't say it in the rules, doesn't mean you can't do it. This is, of course, a bugbear all over the site, and an often mis-interpreted maxim. But anyone who treats rules booklets as gospel is a fool. Doesn't apply in this situation.

d10-4 It prevents lazy gaming. My wife and I have played a good 50 games of Jambo and we know what the card does. But it's very frustrating when she gets into the habit of playing a crocodile and carrying out its effects without actually saying anything. Likewise when she doesn't count off my five actions (as we have got into the habit of doing). It puts across the impression of someone who doesn't care or can't be bothered, and who wants to play games with someone like that?

d10-5 Gaming is a social occasion. This is admittedly a contentious point. I know that out there are people who like to play Agricola and Puerto Rico in studious stony silence. I am definitely the polar opposite of those people. As far as I'm concerned, one of the best aspects of gaming is the opportunity to interact with other people. Glory To Rome, given the light-hearted card art and the general relaxed mission statement of the CGF, is definitely a game that is encouraging interaction. It could be said that withholding information in this way is anti-social; it's not a million miles away from what I would say, and it's why I would leave any gaming group that expected me to keep my thoughts to myself, and why I find gaming on BSW to be unfulfilling.
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Jonathan Harrison
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Every turn in our games of Dominion is narrated like this:

Quote:
"Candlemaker's Guild for 2 actions;
"First action Farrier for 3 cards;
"Second action Stonemason for a card and an action;
"One action left, Troubadour for plus 3 money;
"No actions left, [counting] plus 1 ... plus 2 ... plus 4 ... plus 7 money to get a gold."

I wouldn't play any other way.
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The Compulsive Completist
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Yep. That is how we play too.
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Matthew Cordeiro
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We play where you have to say the names of the action cards as you're playing them, how much money you're spending, and what you're buying. It's assumed everyone knows what the cards do, so just the names are fine for us.

I think announcing these details is beneficial for 2 reasons. First, you can actually follow what others are doing and plan accordingly. Second, it's a good check to make sure people are playing correctly. I don't think people are cheating, but mistakes happen, especially with the speed and variety of cards played.
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Harald Korneliussen
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Syvanis wrote:
We play for fun with friends. No one would cheat.


I trust my friends not to cheat, but I also know that they would prefer I didn't pay so much attention to what they are doing. I like well-informed play, they seemingly don't

A lot of games which have simultaneous moves (7 wonders, Race for the Galaxy, Gauntlet of Fools) could do without it and instead have an announce rule.
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Sverre
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Totally agree with OP, and think this can be generalised to most games. Narrating your turn makes it more obvious to others what's going on.
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Mark Schell
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We just simply announce the titles and preform the actions but no one is shy if they dont remember the card, they ask

but generally that is all we do is we go village, market, smithy, village and just announce the titles.

in the case of multi modal or choice cards then we announce the choice that was made

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Trevin Beattie
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In my games where most players are well acquainted with the various cards, it's usually sufficient to announce the title of the card one is playing, gaining, or buying. But for cards where you have a choice of actions, such as Pawn, it is absolutely required to announce your choice before continuing your play.

One of my own pet peeves is when a player buys a card without actually laying his treasures down on the table. (It took some doing to convince him that the order in which treasures are played matters with some Prosperity cards.) And to a lesser extent, players who lay down all their remaining actions that they aren't playing, or the remainder of their hand during the buy phase, though those players are usually beginners.
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Paul M
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Good first post, OP.
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Jonathan Harrison
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Trevin wrote:
And to a lesser extent, players who lay down all their remaining actions that they aren't playing, or the remainder of their hand during the buy phase, though those players are usually beginners.

I will do this, but only while saying, "No more actions, can't use the rest of my hand", or something like that.
 
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Aaron Morgan
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HuginnGreiling wrote:
Every turn in our games of Dominion is narrated like this:

Quote:
"Candlemaker's Guild for 2 actions;
"First action Farrier for 3 cards;
"Second action Stonemason for a card and an action;
"One action left, Troubadour for plus 3 money;
"No actions left, [counting] plus 1 ... plus 2 ... plus 4 ... plus 7 money to get a gold."

I wouldn't play any other way.


I can't imagine anyone playing it any other way. Playing in silence just seems so wrong for a social activity.
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Diz Hooper
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I say what I'm doing but the other players aren't listening. They're too busy looking at their cards or talking about what was on TV last night.
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Jonathan Harrison
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thdizzy wrote:
I say what I'm doing but the other players aren't listening. They're too busy looking at their cards or talking about what was on TV last night.

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Joseph Cochran
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From our game on Sunday night:

Me: Treasury, Treasury, Treasury, Peddler, Peddler, Treasury, Peddler, Council Room. That's um.... 18... buy two Provinces. Done.

Opponent1: Ugh. Treasury, Treasury, Mystic for Copper (darn it was a Gold), Mystic for Gold. 10, Province. Done.


And so on. People don't always pay a lot of attention to every turn (for example, a couple of times you need to repeat an effect that other players need to acknowledge or that prompts them to act: in Sunday's game I repeated Council Room a few times when an opponent was distracted the first time), but the running narrative is always there for SOMEONE to hear.
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Rob Herman
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One of the regulars on forum.dominionstrategy has the tagline "Dominion: verbing nouns since 2008." That's definitely the way we play.

"I'll Village, then Smithy, then Pearl Diver, then Witch you all."
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Jerry Martin
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I would say Magic has had that honor since 1993. I'll swords your creature.
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When we do go on "audio" mode, we also need to be specific. For example, when some1 says "Militia", u'd think that ppl would be paying attn and thus, tell by context (it is the buy hase) that he bought a Militia, but they instead discard down to 3, or clarify if he bought or played one... Every1's busy looking at their hand, planning out their next move.

When we do quicker, less verbose games, we'll mention out loud if key cards were purchased, like the first attack card (after a fragile 3-turn, peace "agreement" that lasted even surprisingly that long )


aaxiom wrote:
EitherOrlok wrote:
HuginnGreiling wrote:
Every turn in our games of Dominion is narrated like this:

Quote:
"Candlemaker's Guild for 2 actions;
"First action Farrier for 3 cards;
"Second action Stonemason for a card and an action;
"One action left, Troubadour for plus 3 money;
"No actions left, [counting] plus 1 ... plus 2 ... plus 4 ... plus 7 money to get a gold."

I wouldn't play any other way.


I can't imagine anyone playing it any other way. Playing in silence just seems so wrong for a social activity.

Race for the Galaxy has this same problem. I play both Dominion and Race by narrating the turn and find it frustrating when people do not and then discover mistakes have been made.


In one game, I looked to my right and noticed some1 discarding 6 cards to pay for Alein Robotic Factory. Problem is, with Alien Trch Institute, he shouldve only paid 4. He took back 2 cards and said he thought the Settle bonus was only good for yellow MILITARY worlds only. Gotta say, I like finding mistakes like these cool
 
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Mark McEvoy
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Sitnaltax wrote:
One of the regulars on forum.dominionstrategy has the tagline "Dominion: verbing nouns since 2008." That's definitely the way we play.

"I'll Village, then Smithy, then Pearl Diver, then Witch you all."


Verbing weirds language.

I always announce each action (maybe not by full name but enough to get across what it does and periodically announce remaining actions. I usually sum coins in advance though, only noting separate additions when they come from action cards "Throne,Lab, I draw 2 and 2 cards and still have 2 actions... now Market... and 7 coins plus 1 from Market makes a Province. Done."
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Linda Baldwin
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We sometimes get sloppy about narration, and I find it falls off as a game goes on. Since I have a memory like a sieve, I have no hesitation in asking "What does that do again?", "What card was that?", etc. I try to make my turns fairly verbose, even if I don't think anyone's paying attention.

(Played my first game of Glory to Rome last weekend. I announced three times I was starting a Catacombs, because I didn't think anybody heard me, including the only experienced player, and I didn't want those looks of shock when I completed it next turn.)
 
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Liz Burton
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My husband and I are at almost 750 plays now and we still narrate our turns to each other. It helps when you know what's going on.

It would be weird to play silent Dominion.
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aaron Haycraft

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People who play games silently are weird as hell to me. No one is asking you to grandstand or announce things at the top of your lungs, but come one, at least try to be social.
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