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Subject: Tournament vs League rss

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Okay, I understand how to set up and run a tournament - I've done it a few times already for various games (including original NR and a few other CCGs).

What I don't know is how to set up and run a LEAGUE.

Here's what I see as the major differences:

1) In a League the players would be able to mix/match decks with a bit more freedom than in a tournament where your deck manifest is fixed for the duration of the tournament.

2) A League would be ongoing over a longer time period (lets call it 3 months) than a Tournament which should reasonably be finished in a few rounds. Note that a Tournament on the web could go for a few weeks, but would still be bound by the restriction of being a single deck manifest for the entire tournament (see item 1)

3) A League should have some reasonable way to rank its members so we know who's doing well/poorly, but I wouldn't want to proscribe a schedule in case various players weren't at a given game night.

So... ideas? Website links?
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Bob Smithy

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How about a ladder system? It gives the freedom to continue if someone isn't there, you don't have to keep decks the same, and it's a rank in itself.
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Hdnggrnchrg wrote:
How about a ladder system? It gives the freedom to continue if someone isn't there, you don't have to keep decks the same, and it's a rank in itself.


Good start.
How do you gain/lose points?
How do you prevent someone from playing a lot taking over the rankings?
 
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reed makamson
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I'm entirely new at this but, I think you'd run the league as a series of tourneys(off the cuff: one a week, three rounds, no elimination). You could rank players by their average performance: take their total prestige/match point score and divide it by tournaments they participated in. You may want to penalize players who missed a lot of tourneys, to keep someone from showing up once and getting lucky dominating the ranking. Maybe every three missed tourneys is counted as a 0-point showing.

How to pair people up in a consistently fair manner? top-to-bottom favors the strong starters. top-to-top favors the weak starters. You could just go totally random(draw out of a hat, etc.) every time.

also, how to handle the case of an odd player? Maybe have someone sit out of each round and give them an arbitrary amount of prestige/match points(3/10 comes to mind) for that round. Have them ref, if fit for it, for the round they sit out.
 
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Depending how in depth you want to get into it, you could use elo.

That's kind of a pain in the ass to calculate, though. I also don't know how much it depends on having a large sample size...

I'd go with something simpler, like this.

Before any given match, the two opponents should explicitly agree before hand that this match will count for the league. Any particular pair of opponents may only have a single match count each night.

If you win the match, you get as many points as you had match points (using the normal rules, 10 points for a game win and points equal to agenda scored for a game loss). In case of a tie match, each player earns 5 points.

In addition, for each day in which a player has at least one registered game, they get a 5 point attendance bonus.

Every day, at the beginning of the league event, post rankings. For each victory against someone ranked 3 or more spots ahead of you, you get a 5 point bonus. These rankings are calculated only at the beginning of each day, so you know who to gun for right from the get go.

This system:

1. Encourages people to show up consistently, since they get an attendance bonus and also can only score one game per day per opponent.

2. Encourages people to play a variety of opponents, for the same reason.

3. Encourages people to accept games with higher-ranked players, as they have the potential to win bonus points.

4. Does not discourage people from challenging lower-ranked players, as they don't actually drop in points directly from a loss.
 
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In the tournament thread, someone mentioned the "sideboard" format in magic. I think it would be cool to use in a league.

You'd have your main deck, and a certain amount of cards on the side that you could switch between after a game.

You could change a certain number of cards in your deck and sideboard after some time in the league, to keep it evolving.
 
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byronczimmer wrote:
Hdnggrnchrg wrote:
How about a ladder system? It gives the freedom to continue if someone isn't there, you don't have to keep decks the same, and it's a rank in itself.


Good start.
How do you gain/lose points?
How do you prevent someone from playing a lot taking over the rankings?


You should look into highly competitive 2-player games like chess and Magic which have very well-thought-out ranking systems. Here is a good Wikipedia article on the Elo ranking system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

What you need to do is track (or have the players track) when they play games against each other and who won. Optionally, you can even track more information like how they won (damage, agenda, etc.), how many agenda points each player had, etc. Then, you plug these stats into an equation which will give each player a ranking. The actual equation you use is completely up to you and the players.

You can start with something as simple as:

Score = Games Won / Total Games Played

That equation will give you a player's win rate. You can then sort every player in the league by their win rate to find each player's rank (#1 being the player with the best win rate). This equation doesn't take into account a player's ranking, however. So, if you have the same two players playing each other every weak and the same player winning, the rankings may not be as reflective of a player's true ability.

To fix this issue you could start everyone with a score of 1 and modify their score after each game like this:

Score if won = Your Score + (0.1 * Opponent's Score / Your Score)
Score if lost = Your Score - (0.1 * Opponent's Score / Your Score)

Something like the above will take into consideration an opponent's score. If you beat an opponent with a higher rank than you, you deserve to get more points than beating someone who has a lower score than you.
 
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Phelanpt wrote:
In the tournament thread, someone mentioned the "sideboard" format in magic. I think it would be cool to use in a league.

You'd have your main deck, and a certain amount of cards on the side that you could switch between after a game.

You could change a certain number of cards in your deck and sideboard after some time in the league, to keep it evolving.


A sideboard doesn't really work in the traditional sense, for Netrunner. A match is 2 games, with each player playing each role once. You don't have a chance to react to what your opponent's running.
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I'm not sure how it is run in the traditional sense. From what you posted, I assume you get to see the deck your opponent plays with, and switch cards before the game?

What I meant is that you can switch after a league game, in order to tweak the deck, but not be able to completely change it.

Now that I think about it, it might not work, since it's possible you'd be locked to a faction if the number of cards you could switch around was too small, and if it's too big, the limit would practically have no effect.

Edit: Ah, I might have been misunderstood. When I said deck, and game, I meant decks (runner+corp), and match.
 
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Paul Imboden
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Standard caveat:

1) Post the matches WAY in advance. Let people know when and who they're playing.

2) Try to incorporate at least one "BYE" week for each player. That way, if a player needs to reschedule a match, they can reschedule around the "BYE" week.

3) Give the players ALL WEEK to make their matches. If a player cannot make the match and made no reasonable effort to reschedule, the person who showed up to the Game Night that week wins in a forfeit. Otherwise, the players schedule their own time to meet that week and/or during the "BYE".

4) Post regular standings. I'd use the prestige system as the main key, then games won, then points. For fun, it'd be good to include point breakdowns by runner and corp for the player. Something like this:


Player PR MW GW PTS RW RL RPTS CW CL CPTS
Opie 12 2 4 40 2 0 20 2 0 20
BT Carpenter 0 0 0 3 0 2 1 0 2 2


But seriously, you'd kick my butt. Probably. Maybe. Ok, I'd own you, meat bag. arrrh
 
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Opie wrote:
Standard caveat:

1) Post the matches WAY in advance. Let people know when and who they're playing.

2) Try to incorporate at least one "BYE" week for each player. That way, if a player needs to reschedule a match, they can reschedule around the "BYE" week.

3) Give the players ALL WEEK to make their matches. If a player cannot make the match and made no reasonable effort to reschedule, the person who showed up to the Game Night that week wins in a forfeit. Otherwise, the players schedule their own time to meet that week and/or during the "BYE".

4) Post regular standings. I'd use the prestige system as the main key, then games won, then points. For fun, it'd be good to include point breakdowns by runner and corp for the player. Something like this:


These look like an online implementation, which is fine.

I'm seeking to run a league that meets at a location for a few hours every two weeks.
 
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Paul Imboden
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Actually, I pulled that one out of my backside. I figured this would be something posted at a FLGS or such.

I also figured it'd be a weekly game scheduled on, say, a Tuesday, but if players couldn't make that date they could host a "rain delay" game; they would be responsible for the make-up date/time within that week, or they'd be able to throw it forward to a "BYE" week.

If you state the rules ahead of time, I believe most folks will act responsible enough... and if they don't, you can always refer back to the rules.
 
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I haven't nailed down the specifics, but we'll be doing a league in the Durham, NC area. Right now, we'll pretty much just run it the same way as we would a tournament, just stretched over a month instead of all in one day.

At the start of the month you'd get your opponents assigned to you, then have to get those games in at some point before the end of the month. You'll submit a deck list, and keep it that way for league games. We'll rank people the same way you would during a single-day tournament and then at the end of the month, pay out prizes (possibly including that month's data pack to 1st place).

The other idea I'm tossing around is to separate things out by faction. We've run a ton of L5R events, and one of the things that makes that really fun is that people really get behind their clan. If we do faction standings, and pay out points and prizes to players in certain factions, we can have a lot of fun with that.
 
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pusherman42 wrote:
I haven't nailed down the specifics, but we'll be doing a league in the Durham, NC area. Right now, we'll pretty much just run it the same way as we would a tournament, just stretched over a month instead of all in one day.

At the start of the month you'd get your opponents assigned to you, then have to get those games in at some point before the end of the month. You'll submit a deck list, and keep it that way for league games. We'll rank people the same way you would during a single-day tournament and then at the end of the month, pay out prizes (possibly including that month's data pack to 1st place).

The other idea I'm tossing around is to separate things out by faction. We've run a ton of L5R events, and one of the things that makes that really fun is that people really get behind their clan. If we do faction standings, and pay out points and prizes to players in certain factions, we can have a lot of fun with that.


I like this idea, as it encourages playing multiple different factions.

Do you rank by faction, regardless of the player (provided they don't play themselves) - which effectively creates up to 7 'categories' per person (1 per faction) ??
 
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Brad Miller
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Didn't see this idea as I scrolled through, so:

For a "League" format everyone must play one game as each identity. Won't work because of 4>3, but with some tweaks it might work. Perhaps 6 different identities and everyone gets to skip one.
 
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Windopaene wrote:
Didn't see this idea as I scrolled through, so:

For a "League" format everyone must play one game as each identity. Won't work because of 4>3, but with some tweaks it might work. Perhaps 6 different identities and everyone gets to skip one.


I was actually thinking everyone can represent just by faction, and can swap in/out as they like between games, but not with foreknowledge of the faction your opponent will play.

Players must identify a league match prior to starting it. Player/faction vs Player/faction is what is recorded, and standings are posted overall and then also rated for things like:

Best in Faction
Best AGAINST a given faction
Best Overall per side (Corp/Runner)

Time to run some Monte Carlo simulations to see what points work well. I don't want to over reward participation nor do I want to punish inconsistent decks.
 
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It is amazing what a walk does for you.

I came to a realization.

For LEAGUE play, you don't need to have players play a match!

I'm going to say that again. Matches don't matter, there's no value in recording them when what you actually care about is how a given player/faction is doing overall against:
1) other players/factions
2) others in the same Faction
3) others on the same side (Corp/Runner).

So do away with that concept and now you can have individual games between player/faction with the standard scoring of:
10 for the winner (regardless of means)
X for the defeated, where 'X' is the number of Agenda points they scored against the opponent.

This then lets you track how well a given person does as a given faction independent of any other variables, and that's beautiful!

If someone wants to take all comers to tune their Corp deck, game on.

If people want to jump around and test out different sides/factions, game on.

I think removing the 'match' concept solves the issue I've been having of letting people be fairly free form with their decks. It allows for deck tuning and inclusion of specific countermeasures based on Identity (only ) (if that's what you want to do) and it lets folks experiment within loose rating structure.

For starters, your 'scores' would be:

Total points/games played (overall ability)
Points as a given faction/games played w/ that faction (faction rank / may need to split up by what identity you were playing against)
Points against a given faction/games played against that faction (anti-faction rank / may need to split up by what identity you were using)

This also allows 'theme nights' where everyone commits to bringing a specific faction for each side (tonight is Weyland vs Shaper night) in order to energize the meta if you find certain factions are getting more play than others.


Thoughts?
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I like a lot of those notions.

But when you say you can do away with "matches" -- are you suggesting that people need not play two games against each person they play?

Or that there need not be a fixed number of matches to create a round in league play?

Because I agree with both assessments, though I think it should still be generally (but unofficially) encouraged to split your games relatively evenly between corp/runner to ensure that people don't get resistant to playing one or the other to the detriment of being able to create matchups.

If that one player ends up with a 70/30% split between runner/corp games played, the league group needs to apply some friendly peer pressure to make sure he gets more corp games in.

I really like the idea of theme nights, too -- it encourages people to stretch themselves and play factions they might not pay much attention to if left to their own devices.
 
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I agree that players should be encouraged to split their focus and maybe you have to put a penalty on scores of players too far from the center.

Note, that's not saying they have to split across all factions, just 50/50 Runner/Corp or some value close to that.

I believe you'd also have to have some means to deal with "I won my first game as NBN, I'm never playing them again and have a '10'!!!". Some small number of dummy values to bring the player closer to center (which is pretty close to '4') would probably do the trick.

 
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Are you penalizing people for trying to flatline the runner in this case?

Also, forcing them to play a match (once each side) eliminates disputes. You play a full match, but perhaps you don't score points for the match. That is, record the result almost like chess, 1-0 or 0-1 but it's two different games that you're recording. Players may end up tied - keep the agenda scores to break ties only.

In the end, is a 7-5 win against a fast-advance NBN worse than a 7-0 win against Weyland whose sole goal was to kill you, and trashed some agendas in order to try?

 
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Jythier wrote:
Are you penalizing people for trying to flatline the runner in this case?


Flatlines (and to a lesser degree decking the Corp) have always been a gamble the player is willing to take. Odds are high that a Corp attempting to flatline the Runner fails to do so, that their personal Agenda score will be lower. Of course, a win is still a win (and worth a full 10 points)


Quote:
Also, forcing them to play a match (once each side) eliminates disputes. You play a full match, but perhaps you don't score points for the match. That is, record the result almost like chess, 1-0 or 0-1 but it's two different games that you're recording. Players may end up tied - keep the agenda scores to break ties only.

That was part of the realization that in a league, matches don't really matter, it's the individual games I believe have value, especially given what I'm trying to track.

I'm not necessarily keen on forcing players to always split their time 50/50 with Runner/Corp - if someone wants to just be a Corp all day and take on all the Runners, that should be permissible in a League situation (where you will be seeing these people over and over again over the course of a long time).

I suspect that players will want to remain balanced, and will naturally gravitate towards playing matches -- but the match is not the point of interest, just the games.

Quote:
In the end, is a 7-5 win against a fast-advance NBN worse than a 7-0 win against Weyland whose sole goal was to kill you, and trashed some agendas in order to try?


Who scored what (and won) in the above cases. I cannot answer otherwise.
 
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7-5 Runner-NBN
7-0 Runner-Weyland

was the example.

Maybe I need to reread what you're tracking here.
 
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So you want to track who the best Runners are, who the best of each Runner are (are you going to split by identities or just factions?), and who does the best against a certain faction/player, etc.

So, perhaps I only care how well I do as NBN/Corp, so I don't need to play as Runner ever to evaluate that.

That makes sense.
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Jythier wrote:
7-5 Runner-NBN
7-0 Runner-Weyland

was the example.

Maybe I need to reread what you're tracking here.


In both cases, the Runner beat the Corp.

In NBN's case, they managed to score 5 Agenda before having the Runner win.

In Weyland's case, they either scored ZERO Agenda, or they chose to forfeit an Agenda (to Archer) and still lost despite the cost.

If the Runner's victory was inevitable, then they should have saved the forfeit Agenda for points.

If the Runner's victory was not inevitable, then Weyland made a choice mid-game and it didn't pay off in a victory.
 
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So, did NBN play 5 points better than Weyland?
 
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