Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
24 Posts

Mage Wars Arena» Forums » General

Subject: Flat Resource Model = slower game rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
K AM
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hello Everyone,

There has been some talk about the length of game (time), and I started thinking about it. If this is obvious to everyone else, please accept my apologies.

The issue I see is that the Resource line is very flat. Not totally flat, but close to it. You start with 10 Mana and then add your channeling to it which gives you a bit of a boost, but essentially you've got only X amount to expend per round. This number can grow a little with Mana Flower, Mana Crystal, Spawnpoints, etc.

But compared to Magic the Gathering (sorry to keep comparing them), there tends to be a strong increase in resources as you play (starting with zero mana, and ending up with 15-20 perhaps--haven't played in a long time).

With this game it seems less likely that you will boost your Channeling to much more than +3 or 4. And, even if you do, it takes some time to break even. Bringing out a Mana Crystal takes 5 turns to break even for example.

My point in mentioning this is that I think this is a major contributor to the speed of the game. Because even if you build up options for playing more cards (Spawn points, Familiars, wands etc) you are still limited.

Not enough games to predict yet, but this leads me to believe that Creatures are the only means in which this is going to speed up...unless your opponent matches you in that, and then it will tend to slow again.

I'm thinking there is an easy fix to the length of game, and that of course is total life. As it stands now, you've got a pretty significant cushion, and healing is pretty good at filling that back in.

KAM
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Laszlo Stadler
Germany
Munich
flag msg tools
badge
Live long and prosper!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I was thinking about game length and what can be done about it if it is really a problem. My game hasn't arrived yet but I also like my games around 60 minutes.

Maybe there could be scripted scenarios that make the game finish faster. Something like these:

- After round 10 15 and 18 there comes an earthquake that damages everything.
- After round 10 and 15 both mages receive 15-15 extra mana
- After round x and y both mages get some direct damage.
- After round x healing spells cost double (this might need some extra balancing because of the priestess)
- etc...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K AM
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hello,

Those are interesting ideas, and I'm sure this game has the flexibility to do those sorts of things. For tournament play, that may be necessary.

Generally, I don't mind a longer game IF it isn't stalled, because I like to build cool "armies" or whatever. Unfortunately, a game where those things can be blown away (dispelled, dissolved) that isn't really likely either.

KAM
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Corbin
United States
Tallahassee
FL
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
another option, which the Mage Wars team have done in their introductory tournaments, is to simply time limit the games to whatever length you choose, 45-60 mins. (or whatever). and at the end of the time limit the mage with the most damage loses.

if you are concerned about players going on a massive healing frenzy in the last round, you can say no healing spells on mages the last 10 mins. (or whatever) of the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K AM
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
theduke850 wrote:
another option, which the Mage Wars team have done in their introductory tournaments, is to simply time limit the games to whatever length you choose, 45-60 mins. (or whatever). and at the end of the time limit the mage with the most damage loses.

if you are concerned about players going on a massive healing frenzy in the last round, you can say no healing spells on mages the last 10 mins. (or whatever) of the game.


A time limit may work ok, but ultimately, it is open to being "gamed" by people. Given that you have to (legitimately) decide on what spells you are going to use, who is to say what is a bogus delay and what isn't?

Better to have a Set reduction in life I think. Of course, that can't be done too arbitrarily.

KAM
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Guytan
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Death Lock is a spell that any Mage can use that puts a lid on healing. Everything gets Finite Life, and can no longer be healed.

We talked about alternate game enders during production (controlling territory, capture the flag, arena walls closing in, etc.), and it is something that we may put out in the future.

However, the game time really does decrease after the players become familiar with the game. Our demos and tournaments always had a 50 min. time limit. You could easily put some house rules into this game.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Guytan
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
KAM1138 wrote:
Hello,

Those are interesting ideas, and I'm sure this game has the flexibility to do those sorts of things. For tournament play, that may be necessary.

Generally, I don't mind a longer game IF it isn't stalled, because I like to build cool "armies" or whatever. Unfortunately, a game where those things can be blown away (dispelled, dissolved) that isn't really likely either.

KAM


Your creatures can't be dispelled, so you can still build up a small army, granted your opponent doesn't start coming at you with his creatures and spells.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K AM
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Saturnineage wrote:
Your creatures can't be dispelled, so you can still build up a small army, granted your opponent doesn't start coming at you with his creatures and spells.


Yes, and that appeals to me just fine, and I actually like that the Creatures are fairly robust (don't typically die to one attack). However, my concern is that this becomes the only viable choice, because Equipment and Enchantments are more vulnerable.

Simply put Creature/Conjuration "Permanents" have an inherent advantage--they keep on acting as long as they are in play. Even a creature that is killed soaks those attacks, which is worth it. Additional actions is already a major benefit. The fact that they cannot be "dispelled/dissolved" makes them that much better.

Why bother with putting a lot of resources into items or enchantments when my opponent can wipe them out (fairly easily) and without me being able to do much about it (I can hide behind walls perhaps).

I haven't played enough games to really find this out, but I've got a suspicious eye on this currently.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Leitner
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In one of the first games I played, I bound a fireball to an elemental wand, which was just wrecking my opponent.

As he moved toward me, it was fairly apparent he was going to attempt to Dissolve my wand.

There are plenty of defensive spells you can play to prevent this, but I chose Reverse Magic (I believe this to be the correct name), an enchantment which allows one to not only stop a spell targeted at the enchanted creature, but to fling it back at its caster.

I used my opponent's Dissolve on his own Regeneration Belt. I won quickly after that.

One of the more interesting aspects of Mage Wars is trying to figure out what your opponent's intentions are.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think the game shoulda been, X turns, everyone has same life, whoever had most life at the end of those turns, adjust length as needed. Game is too long, and slow as all get out.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K AM
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
MDJD wrote:
In one of the first games I played, I bound a fireball to an elemental wand, which was just wrecking my opponent.

As he moved toward me, it was fairly apparent he was going to attempt to Dissolve my wand.

There are plenty of defensive spells you can play to prevent this, but I chose Reverse Magic (I believe this to be the correct name), an enchantment which allows one to not only stop a spell targeted at the enchanted creature, but to fling it back at its caster.

I used my opponent's Dissolve on his own Regeneration Belt. I won quickly after that.

One of the more interesting aspects of Mage Wars is trying to figure out what your opponent's intentions are.


Perhaps, I'd rather PLAY then dance around trying to prevent the thing that he's using to try and prevent me from playing. That sort of "counter-spell" gaming gets stupid really fast--for me. I simply don't like that type of game. I prefer a game where you basically play what you play, as does your opponent.

MY opinion--"counters" or instant-removal mechanics need to be few and sufficiently difficult to use. That's my major concern about this game thus far.

KAM
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Guytan
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Nullify and Block are your friends.

If there was always a way to unquestionably beat someone, then that is how everyone would end up playing. That would kill the game very quickly, and it would be pretty poor game design.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Guytan
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Action Phase wrote:
I think the game shoulda been, X turns, everyone has same life, whoever had most life at the end of those turns, adjust length as needed. Game is too long, and slow as all get out.


Travis, the time factor really goes down after the players have gotten a handle on the game, usually after a few games. If you like your games to be under 90 minutes, then I can understand that this is probably not the game for you. Although, I have seen games finish in as little as 15 minutes!

Also, there is nothing stopping you from making house rules that you mention to make your games faster. I often do that with other board games if I don't like something.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Hoffman
United States
Cheektowaga
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Having played my share of incredibly long games, it comes down to players being unwilling to attack each other, unwilling to risk their mage on offense.

The game can end in a handful of turns if people start attacking early and often.

I'd love to see more cards that encourage all out attacks in future sets, it speeds up the game, and makes it much more fun.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K AM
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Saturnineage wrote:
Nullify and Block are your friends.

If there was always a way to unquestionably beat someone, then that is how everyone would end up playing. That would kill the game very quickly, and it would be pretty poor game design.


Not to be a jerk or anything, but if this DID happen (not saying it will), it wouldn't be the first game that was "broken" following even heavy play testing. I refer you to "Battletech CCG" from WotC. That game fell apart immediately. A handful of people will seldom find what X-thousand will.

BUT it isn't about UNQUESTIONABLY beating someone--it is about what has the better win percentage.

Unfortunately, I have more time to talk (type) about this, rather than play, or I'd have my answers.

Of course, I've gotten off the point of this (my OP no less) thread, which is the Flat(ish) Resource model this game seems to have.

KAM


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Dieckmann
United States
Bronx
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A very easy fix that I see would be setting a time limit, and then count total damage dealt. This will still allow a fatality victory and healing will help keep you alive but not negate damage dealt.

This supposed to be a game about dueling mages. Not mamby pambying about healing yourself go smash your opponent or summon some dudes to do the same. Seems like a good solution to me? If you know there is a certain ammount of time of turns? Then that may lead to deadlier games. That said this may lead to certain characters being stronger than others as well.

Kind of early in this games existence to be deciding it's fate. I wonder what kind of balance issues will would be involved with lower life total battles? Cards were costed with a certain life total in mind so then would lower life totals need to %age based to remain balanced?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anders Berfner
Sweden
Borås
Sverige
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Back to the first question: Flat or Limited mana issue.
The soultion to me is to make strong equipment. You have two action with your mage, which can be used to cast spells. But that will drain your mana to quickly. To save mana but still do something valuble with your action you must be able to strik hard with your mage. He/She needs strong (more powerfull and cheaper) equipment.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anders Berfner
Sweden
Borås
Sverige
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Beffe wrote:
Back to the first question: Flat or Limited mana issue.
The soultion to me is to make strong equipment. You have two action with your mage, which can be used to cast spells. But that will drain your mana to quickly. To save mana but still do something valuble with your action you must be able to strik hard with your mage. He/She needs strong (more powerfull and cheaper) equipment.


This also means that the mages have to step into the battle much sooner. If not the opposing mage will just kill of all your creatures. This will cut time and regenerate mana.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K AM
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hello,

In terms of Equipment. Well, that was my first thought, along with other Mana-boosting things like Mana Crystal and Mana flower. Clearly, given that you have to recoup those costs, it seems like getting those out early makes the most sense.

However, my current thinking is that number of playable actions trumps that. So, I want to get out some Creature ASAP as well.

KAM
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Geremy
United States
SoCal
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Here is a suggestion I made on this thread:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/10213787#10213787

Another option to speed up the game:

Stealing a trick form "A Game of Thrones LCG" - allow each mage to secretly choose 30 mana worth of cards, then in initiative order "cast" them into play before the game starts. This will allow you to get your equipment and a few other items out so you can get right into the action and not waste the first 3-4 rounds building it up.

You could make a few limitations ie, only one creature max or only equipment and conjurations or ... wait for it... only equipment, conjurations and a maximum of one creature.

With this option you are not limiting anyone's spell book or forcing someone to change their book and tactics for a pickup game.

Just an idea I will be proposing to my group.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jaycee Skyhawkk
msg tools
Avatar
Scout762 wrote:
Stealing a trick form "A Game of Thrones LCG" - allow each mage to secretly choose 30 mana worth of cards, then in initiative order "cast" them into play before the game starts. This will allow you to get your equipment and a few other items out so you can get right into the action and not waste the first 3-4 rounds building it up.

You could make a few limitations ie, only one creature max or only equipment and conjurations or ... wait for it... only equipment, conjurations and a maximum of one creature.


So how do you agree on where someone places a Mana Siphon?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Geremy
United States
SoCal
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Originalazrael wrote:
Scout762 wrote:
Stealing a trick form "A Game of Thrones LCG" - allow each mage to secretly choose 30 mana worth of cards, then in initiative order "cast" them into play before the game starts. This will allow you to get your equipment and a few other items out so you can get right into the action and not waste the first 3-4 rounds building it up.

You could make a few limitations ie, only one creature max or only equipment and conjurations or ... wait for it... only equipment, conjurations and a maximum of one creature.


So how do you agree on where someone places a Mana Siphon?


I agree that it can be cast within range of the Mage casting it.

i.e. create your spell book, set aside 30 mana worth of spells, place mages, cast spells... begin first round. Just a thought, do as you will as long as you all agree and have fun
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron G
Australia
flag msg tools
I win a lot of my games because I don't let opponents build up the way they like to. Reminds me of playing Red Alert as a kid. People wanted to build a base and an army for an hour then fight. I'd rush in with a few foot dudes and wipe them. Use the fact that they want to build up their items and mana pool against them. After you smash them a few times in a rush, the meta within your group will change for sure.

Go for the throat, eyes on the prize.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Geremy
United States
SoCal
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree, I also rush in and break all their stuff. This variant is just for a different twist.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.