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Subject: No-Symp Variant, Revealed Cylons draw. rss

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Cesar Puga
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Hi. We are playing PBF 302 and I have some questions for the more experienced players here.

Our game is a Base game, 6 players, No-sympathizer. We started with lowered resources but with no mention about revealed cylons draw.

We already have a revealed cylon. On his turn (page 17) he draw 2 piloting. We start to talk if the cylon should get the third card or not. Another question is if drawing only 2 cards would unbalance the game in favor of humans.

Granted, our Moderator never said that he was using Official FFG No-Symp rules and he holds the final word. For now he suggested that revealed cylons can draw 2 cards from the same skill deck or 3 cards if they came from 3 different decks. Would that break the balance ?

And another question: Is there any other reason for Boomer not be allowed to be chosen in a 6-player No Symp game other than the lack of enough YANAC cards ? (Problem easily solved by using the symp card as YANAC.)
 
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M. B. Downey
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Cylon needs to be able to draw 3 to combat 4 humans.

Boomer can be chosen if not using sympathizer.
 
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Robert Stewart
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Part of the balancing for Boomer is that she's more likely to turn Sympathiser. Obviously, since you can play Boomer in 3/5 player games as well as in 4/6, it's not an absolutely critical balancing feature, so it's fair enough to include her anyway.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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If I remember right, with the Official No-Sympathizer Variant in the base game, you could technically draw three Piloting or three Engineering if you want. I actually recently played a face to face game where the revealed Cylon strategy was to hoard repairs so we couldn't fix the damage.

However, if playing with either of the expansions, the three cards for revealed Cylons in the Official No-Sympathizer Variant would have to come from three different skill decks.

I believe that the question about Boomer in the No-Sympathizer variant is addressed in the unofficial FAQ; there's not an extremely compelling reason why she can't be chosen. They even suggest that if you have a six player No-Sympathizer game with both Baltar and Boomer, you can use the Sympathizer loyalty card as a regular You Are Not a Cylon loyalty card.
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rmsgrey wrote:
Part of the balancing for Boomer is that she's more likely to turn Sympathiser. Obviously, since you can play Boomer in 3/5 player games as well as in 4/6, it's not an absolutely critical balancing feature, so it's fair enough to include her anyway.
Especially since there's an easy workaround for that.... when sleeper phase hits, shuffle and deal out 1 loyalty card to Boomer. Then shuffle in the cylon-symp card, and deal out the rest of the loyalty cards from there. This way, it's 'fair' * now that Boomer has the same odds of being a cylon-symp.



* Altho if i didn't know better, I'd say that could've been a feature, as some folks would've preferred being a cylon-symp cylon than being in the Brig, or have the Brig effect hit Boomer anyways since she was gonna go there.
 
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Pieter
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Mike_Bonn wrote:
For now he suggested that revealed cylons can draw 2 cards from the same skill deck or 3 cards if they came from 3 different decks. Would that break the balance ?

Answer: No. As long as the Cylon can draw 3 cards. If Revealed Cylons are limited to 2 cards, they run out of cards too quickly. But whether you allow drawing all 3 cards from one deck, or make a 2-1 split, or force drawing from 3 different decks does not matter much for balance.

Mike_Bonn wrote:
And another question: Is there any other reason for Boomer not be allowed to be chosen in a 6-player No Symp game other than the lack of enough YANAC cards ? (Problem easily solved by using the symp card as YANAC.)

Already answered above: the designer ruled that there was no compelling reason not to use Boomer other than a material limitation (which is of no consequence for a PBF game).
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M. B. Downey
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Flyboy Connor wrote:
Answer: No. As long as the Cylon can draw 3 cards. If Revealed Cylons are limited to 2 cards, they run out of cards too quickly. But whether you allow drawing all 3 cards from one deck, or make a 2-1 split, or force drawing from 3 different decks does not matter much for balance.


I read the OP as saying the mod said he could either draw 2 cards from the same deck or 3 cards if they are all from different decks. In the first case he WOULD be drawing less than 3 cards, and that is a problem, as you also have said.
 
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Pieter
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downeymb wrote:
I read the OP as saying the mod said he could either draw 2 cards from the same deck or 3 cards if they are all from different decks.

I went into the game's thread, and I think the mod said that he ruled that you could draw a maximum of 2 from one deck, and then 1 from a different deck. But we agree on the principle.
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Cesar Puga
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I think that the suggestion is: draw either 2 cards from one deck OR 3 cards from 3 different decks, see quote below:

Mr T 1977 wrote:


Compromise: Revealed cylons may draw 2 cards of one deck or 3 cards of three different decks. What about this?


 
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Robert Stewart
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downeymb wrote:
Flyboy Connor wrote:
Answer: No. As long as the Cylon can draw 3 cards. If Revealed Cylons are limited to 2 cards, they run out of cards too quickly. But whether you allow drawing all 3 cards from one deck, or make a 2-1 split, or force drawing from 3 different decks does not matter much for balance.


I read the OP as saying the mod said he could either draw 2 cards from the same deck or 3 cards if they are all from different decks. In the first case he WOULD be drawing less than 3 cards, and that is a problem, as you also have said.


I think if the Cylon has the choice to draw 3 from 3 or 2 from 1, then it's not a problem that they're not always drawing three cards - if the third card is essential, then they just never take the pair. By making it a choice for the player, and leaving it to their judgement whether it's ever the right call, you change it from screwing them over to giving them the option to screw themselves over - or, if there are circumstances where doubling up is more valuable than being able to spike three times, you give them the chance to play smarter.

So long as there is that option to draw three cards, I don't have a problem with other options also being available.
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M. B. Downey
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rmsgrey wrote:
So long as there is that option to draw three cards, I don't have a problem with other options also being available.


The base game specifically allows you to draw 2 cards from the same deck, so I fail to see why including the No-symp variant that let's you draw a 3rd card would prevent you from drawing 2 from the same deck. It is a limitation and hinders the revealed cylon player.

The only discussion that might have merit is whether or not the revealed cylon can draw 3 cards from the same deck.
 
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For Peg and/or Exo, I'm inclined to go with revealed cylons in a no-symp game drawing 3 cards, and all 3 must be different from each other. Most similar case is an infiltrating Sympathetic cylon....

page 18 of Peg rulebook
Quote:
Sympathetic Cylon

.....
.....

The Sympathetic Cylon does not receive a Super Crisis Card,
but may Infiltrate from the Human Fleet location as if he were
a Cylon Leader. When Infiltrating, a Sympathetic Cylon does not
have a Skill set. During his Receive Skills step (while Infiltrating),
he draws three Skill Cards of any type, but each card must
come from a different Skill type. He may draw no more than
one Skill Card of any type during his Receive Skills step.



if we want to follow the rules as literally as possible....
also page 18...
Quote:
When a Cylon player draws Skill Cards, he may not draw
more than one card from each Skill type.


.

For base game, the FFG official variants rulebook never mentioned such a restriction, so a 3 Engineering draw away! (only to have it blocked by Scientific Research)
 
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M. B. Downey
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Pegasus introduces the "may not draw more than one card skill card of each type" rule. It is not present in the base game.
 
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downeymb wrote:
Pegasus introduces the "may not draw more than one card skill card of each type" rule. It is not present in the base game.
I forgot to be specific in my post. I just assumed the OP may have been discussing a game with 1 or more exp.
 
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