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Subject: The mathiness of SanSan rss

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John Gallant
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I realize that the benefit of the SanSan grid from NBN is pretty awesome, but man it's expensive.

It speeds up scoring agendas, but how much earlier can you expect to win by having it out.

The way I see it, you have to have it out early, using up pretty important early credits.

I haven't seen an in depth article on it, so please let me know.
 
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David Kempe-Cook
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The big thing that SanSan does is have 5 trash cost. If SanSan is in my starting hand, I'll create a new server with it hoping to force the Runner to spend 5 without me spending 6. Later in the game, I'll rez it when my economy has started, but economy really has to come first for the corp.
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John Gallant
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sydwys8 wrote:
Later in the game, I'll rez it when my economy has started, but economy really has to come first for the corp.


At that point, you must be using it to accelerate the last few agendas for the win?
 
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Noah D

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Cheeseburger wrote:
sydwys8 wrote:
Later in the game, I'll rez it when my economy has started, but economy really has to come first for the corp.


At that point, you must be using it to accelerate the last few agendas for the win?


Yes, it's not about saving enough credits or actions to pay for itself, that will very rarely happen. It's about letting you score an agenda a turn sooner than you otherwise would, and about ultimately forcing the runner to expend a bunch of resources to trash it.
 
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Paul Grogan
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This card is a slightly modified version of an original card. Washington DC city grid, but that cost 7 to Rez and the original rule on regions is that you had to Rez them at the time of install. The original card was fairly unplayable IMO. But, this new one is very playable...
 
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R. Sangalang
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It's good to examine similar cards to understand relative value.

Cards:
SanSan City Grid
Asset
Rez Cost: 6 creds
Trash Cost: 5 creds
Advance requirement of agendas lowered by 1

Biotic Labor
Operation
Cost: 4 creds
Gain click,click

Normally, scoring agendas that cost 3 advancement would take two turns.
Both SanSan City Grid and Biotic Labor both allow you to do it in 1 turn.

SanSan City Grid (needs to be installed on a previous turn)
Action 1: install agenda
Action 2: advance (1 cred)
Action 3: advance (1 cred)
rez SanSan (6 creds)
score agenda
total cost: 8 creds

Biotic Labor
Action 1: play Biotic Labor (4 creds)
Action 2: install agenda
Action 3: advance (1 cred)
Bonus Action 1: advance (1 cred)
Bonus Action 2: advance (1 cred)
score agenda
total cost: 7 creds

SanSan takes 1 more credit and 1 more action to setup but can be used multiple times once rezzed. There's no need to rez it for 6 creds until you have an opportunity to use it. You can also pose SanSan as an agenda to bait a runner to run a server only to hit a card that they need to pay 5 to trash.

Biotic Labor is cheaper to use, not trashable, and you can use the actions for other purposes. However, it does take up space in HQ, can only be run once, and can't pose as an agenda.
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Agent J
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I always thought it was so you could score Breaking News and use the tags, too.
 
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Caleb

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argus88 wrote:
Cheeseburger wrote:
sydwys8 wrote:
Later in the game, I'll rez it when my economy has started, but economy really has to come first for the corp.


At that point, you must be using it to accelerate the last few agendas for the win?


Yes, it's not about saving enough credits or actions to pay for itself, that will very rarely happen. It's about letting you score an agenda a turn sooner than you otherwise would, and about ultimately forcing the runner to expend a bunch of resources to trash it.


Yep. While it's clearly a very useful card for timing/pressure reasons, it will probably very rarely actually pay for itself in pure resources. I think it's safe to equate one click with one credit for this sort of analysis... so it costs you 7 to install and rez it. From then on, each installed agenda needs one less click+credit=advance (saving 2). So to see a benefit, we need to gain 7+ resources, which would be four uses of its ability (saving 8, net +1 for the Corp). But that means we need to score four separate agendas *after* rezzing the Grid, and if you're at that point, you probably should have won anyway. However, even if you only use its ability on one agenda (saving 2, net cost of 5 for the Corp) and then the runner trashes it, that's 5 cost to both players (+1 for Corp if you count the click the runner used to run on it), so we *sort of* came out ahead after at least one usage if it's trashed.
 
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Agent J
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And paid how much to break the ice, or did they take the subroutines? You've just made them HAVE to run that server, or you will pump out agendas without them having a shot at them at all. Also, you know that server isn't safe if they get through. Maybe they had to install a new breaker for it.

Biotic labor, used once and gone. SanSan, used once, and forces action from the runner.

I like the idea of a tollbooth sitting in front of it. Now it's cost the runner a lot more to trash it.
 
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Matt
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SanSan is a neat card, both rezzed and unrezzed.

You can rez it when you need it, or leave it as a threat that costs a lot to trash.

It has bluff options too. If the runner has seen SanSan (or you've rezzed it), you might think about plays which give a trap like Junebug or Aggressive Secretary the look of an agenda.
 
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Sjoerd Dijkstra
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sydwys8 wrote:
The big thing that SanSan does is have 5 trash cost. If SanSan is in my starting hand, I'll create a new server with it hoping to force the Runner to spend 5 without me spending 6. Later in the game, I'll rez it when my economy has started, but economy really has to come first for the corp.
How would you force an opponent to spend 5? When spotting a Sansan early in the game, I would not be too worried. Let the corp put down that agenda on that server, he is very unlikely to have the bits to advance that agenda with Sansan if he rezzes Sansan. Also, rezzing Sansan means less bits to rez ICE. I would just leave it there.
 
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Josh Paulik
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Shurdus wrote:
sydwys8 wrote:
The big thing that SanSan does is have 5 trash cost. If SanSan is in my starting hand, I'll create a new server with it hoping to force the Runner to spend 5 without me spending 6. Later in the game, I'll rez it when my economy has started, but economy really has to come first for the corp.
How would you force an opponent to spend 5? When spotting a Sansan early in the game, I would not be too worried. Let the corp put down that agenda on that server, he is very unlikely to have the bits to advance that agenda with Sansan if he rezzes Sansan. Also, rezzing Sansan means less bits to rez ICE. I would just leave it there.


Either way he's in ok shape. If you run on the server and don't trash the SanSan, you wasted a run, basically. If you do you spent 5.

If you leave it, then you run the risk of his next turn being Hedge Fund, rez SanSan, play Astroscript Pilot Program, advance twice, score. Now he still has a server with SanSan on it that you HAVE to come trash, since you know his next turn will likely be a one turn score of some other agenda.
 
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Noah D

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Shurdus wrote:
sydwys8 wrote:
The big thing that SanSan does is have 5 trash cost. If SanSan is in my starting hand, I'll create a new server with it hoping to force the Runner to spend 5 without me spending 6. Later in the game, I'll rez it when my economy has started, but economy really has to come first for the corp.
How would you force an opponent to spend 5? When spotting a Sansan early in the game, I would not be too worried. Let the corp put down that agenda on that server, he is very unlikely to have the bits to advance that agenda with Sansan if he rezzes Sansan. Also, rezzing Sansan means less bits to rez ICE. I would just leave it there.


Ok sure, but then you still spent a click on a run where you didn't score or trash a thing, so that basically cancels out the cost to install for for the Corp (unless they're playing HB and got a credit to install).

So now They've got what is essentially a Biotic Labor sitting on the table with less of the surprise factor, but still, for only 1 more credit than a Biotic Labor would cost, the Corp now have the option to score an Astroscript Pilot Program or Accelerated Beta Test out of hand, or to score a Breaking News and have another action to follow up with Closed Accounts or Scorched Earth.

Furthermore, so, you as the Runner decided not to spend 5 to trash it before the Corp rezzed it. So let's say the Corp didn't put any Ice in-front of it and just waited around till they needed the Biotic Labor effect and had the credits on-hand to rez and use SanSan. They just spent 5 credits for its effect (the install was a wash, since you also spent an action running and not trashing it).

Now it's your choice again. Run and trash it, and you'll each have spent 5 credits, you'll be down an action, and the Corp will be up an insta-scored agenda. Choose to leave it there, and you're giving them the ability to continue one-shotting their agendas and saving on not having to heavily Ice a remote server as well as the credit + click saved off of ever agenda scored from SanSan.

All that is assuming no protection at all. Add a couple Ice in front of SanSan and each choice just becomes more costly from the Runner's perspective.
 
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R. Sangalang
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Jythier wrote:
I always thought it was so you could score Breaking News and use the tags, too.


Breaking News is only one agenda point. If I wanted to use the tags, I would do it two turns. One turn to install, and the other turn to advance twice and have an action for the tagged runner.

I feel that SanSan is much more useful for scoring AutoScript Pilot Program right out of HQ. Having a San San and an already scored AutoScript would allow you to score a Private Security Team right out of HQ as well.

The most optimum procedure would be to score two AutoScript Pilot Programs right out of HQ, then use both to score a Priority Req right out of HQ!

Obviously, if you have the possibility to win with a Scorched Earth then using it for Breaking News is fine.

Note: I'm referring to the case in which I would rez SanSan. If it's already rezzed, I would always use it when I got the chance too.
 
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Agent J
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I'm thinking Psychographics on another agenda and totally blow them away in one turn...

Install, advance, pray, then next turn, advance/score Breaking News, drop AutoScript, Psychographics advance/advance score. 3 point play and ready to accelerate again.

Now, the threat of that should make the runner really want to trash SanSan.

With Biotic labor, you don't get the possibility of using it twice in one turn. Then again, you can use the biotic labor to destroy a tagged runner with clicks and Private Security force.

I suppose it's situational, just like everything else in this game.
 
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Micheal Keane
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I'm thinking you play HB and bring in SanSan and Tollbooth from NBN so that you can enjoy SanSan AND Biotic Labor. Shame you don't get Astroscript but HB still has a 3/2 agenda.
 
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James Buchanan
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chaochou wrote:

It has bluff options too. If the runner has seen SanSan (or you've rezzed it), you might think about plays which give a trap like Junebug or Aggressive Secretary the look of an agenda.


You could also have a lot of fun with San San and the ghost branch. Put the San San behind a Data Raven and the Matrix Analyzer. Wait until they run on it. Then if they don't trash it, put down Ghost Branch and advance it twice. This should elicit an panic reaction where they run it again and get loaded down with a minimum of 4 tags.

It's the kind of thing that makes my black corporate heart beam.
 
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David Kempe-Cook
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I had a game where I had a rezzed SanSan, a scored AutoScript, 2 Breaking News, Priority Req, and Psychographics. Breaking News and advance. One turn. Next turn: Score Breaking News, Install another Breaking News, Score with Autoscript, Install Priority Req, Psychograph for the Win.
 
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sydwys8 wrote:
I had a game where I had a rezzed SanSan, a scored AutoScript, 2 Breaking News, Priority Req, and Psychographics. Breaking News and advance. One turn. Next turn: Score Breaking News, Install another Breaking News, Score with Autoscript, Install Priority Req, Psychograph for the Win.


NBN is the Lightning McQueen of corporations - "Speed. I am speed."
 
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Jack Bennett
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Jythier wrote:
sydwys8 wrote:
I had a game where I had a rezzed SanSan, a scored AutoScript, 2 Breaking News, Priority Req, and Psychographics. Breaking News and advance. One turn. Next turn: Score Breaking News, Install another Breaking News, Score with Autoscript, Install Priority Req, Psychograph for the Win.


NBN is the Lightning McQueen of corporations - "Speed. I am speed."


"Hot, nasty, bad-ass speed."

-Eleanor Roosevelt
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R. Sangalang
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Jythier wrote:
I'm thinking Psychographics on another agenda and totally blow them away in one turn...

Install, advance, pray, then next turn, advance/score Breaking News, drop AutoScript, Psychographics advance/advance score. 3 point play and ready to accelerate again.

Now, the threat of that should make the runner really want to trash SanSan.

With Biotic labor, you don't get the possibility of using it twice in one turn. Then again, you can use the biotic labor to destroy a tagged runner with clicks and Private Security force.

I suppose it's situational, just like everything else in this game.


Your scenario calls for two turns. Setup, Pray, Big Turn.
Well, you could just score AutoScript that first turn, then score Breaking News the next for the same amount of points over two turns, no praying needed, and you still have Psychographics.

Of course its doesn't have the style points of a scoring two agendas in one turn though.
 
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Richard Rutten
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thanospkc wrote:
...You can also pose SanSan as an agenda to bait a runner to run a server only to hit a card that they need to pay 5 to trash....

How can you pose it as an agenda? It's an upgrade and therefore installed in the root, right? Agendas are in the server itself.
 
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Peter Lam
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Upgrades on Central servers are installed in the root. Upgrades installed in a Remote server are installed alongside the Agenda/Asset. You do not need to tell the Runner if the card is an Upgrade or an Agenda/Asset.
 
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Richard Rutten
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Zanderval wrote:
Upgrades on Central servers are installed in the root. Upgrades installed in a Remote server are installed alongside the Agenda/Asset. You do not need to tell the Runner if the card is an Upgrade or an Agenda/Asset.

Ah that's how it works. Even better, I'll enjoy this added secrecy. Thanks for the explanation.
 
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John Fanjoy
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Sansan does a few things for you

1) it lets you score Astroscript Pilot Program or Accelerated Beta Test directly from your hand

2) it lets you score Nisei Mk II and Private Security Force that was installed in a previous turn (to the runner, facedown Nisei or PSF with no advancement looks the same as Adonis or PAD, which they might not need to attack this turn). Admittedly, Biotic Labor is better for this job.

3) it's a great target to lay out behind some ICE to draw a run. If the runner trashes it, hey, it cost them FIVE credits to your zero. If the runner doesn't trash it, they wasted the click for the run, as well as however much your ICE extracted from them (you didn't put it down in an empty fort, did you?)
 
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