Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
20 Posts

Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question on measurement rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Andrzej Sieradzki
Poland
Opole
flag msg tools
badge
We don't stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Page 10 of the core rules.
Explanation of range and arc of fire.

I'm used to measure the range and arc of fire in a different way, like it is in Wings of War: from center of an attacker's base (a peg), through the arc of fire and check if it touches the enemy base. It's easy to observe the arc of fire and the range is easy to define.
The relevant rule in X-wing game is very strange and leads to many confusions as to the range and arc of fire (it can be easily "broaden" by the attacker.

Any thoughts?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Graffam
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In borderline cases, we lay the range marker right along outer edge of the arc line, starting at the peg.

If it's "too close to call," we just call it in and quickly move on. It's more fun to roll than not roll.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tarus .
Spain
Leganés
flag msg tools
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The rulebook says that the measurement must be made from the closest points between the two bases. That means that there's only one way to measure distance because the attacker can't choose the point in his base and the point in the defender's base: he must choose the two closest points.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Kröhnert
Germany
Aachen
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It also stroke me as odd at first, but then I understood: it is most likely because of the numbered markers which can be put around the central peg - they are in the way to get an accurately defined contact between ruler and central peg.

What you have to do is one step more than with Wings of War/Wings of Glory:

- align the ruler between the two bases in order to see if the target ship is within the arc of fire (ignore the distance). If target is within arc of fire:

- measure the distance from edge of base to edge of other base.

It is more elegant in WoW/WoG, I admit that, but it is not a real problem in X-Wing*.


*I like WoW (Word War I) a lot, mainly because of the variety in the different maneuvres, the planning ahead, and the fact that it is a really captivating game even when only its most basic rules are used, and X-Wing, though having its own merits, will not change that - both games are different enough that they will hit my table frequently.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete aka The Masked Minstrel
Australia
Perth
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DagobahDave wrote:
It's more fun to roll than not roll.


Fun is the name of the game, so many times in other games we've mutually made rulings in favour of the more fun outcome whenever there was an issue at hand.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrea Angiolino
Italy
Rome
European Union
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Interesting note indeed.

nightbomber wrote:
I'm used to measure the range and arc of fire in a different way, like it is in Wings of War: from center of an attacker's base (a peg), through the arc of fire and check if it touches the enemy base. It's easy to observe the arc of fire and the range is easy to define.


You are in good company. I'd say that Jason Little himself, in official demos, just does a single-step measurement for arc and range, as in WoW, instead than checking the arc first and the distance after.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmMXetSD07g

Some confusion might also arise because of the wrong images at page 11 of the rulebok. The limits of the firing ranges are drawn as circular arcs, with every point at the same distance from the center of the firer's base - not from the nearest point of the firer's base. If they were drawn according to the rule, the range limits would be flat in front.

My thought is that it was a last minute change from the original system, maybe for the production issue quoted by Michel.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Burke
United States
Lansing
Michigan
flag msg tools
Part Owner, Gen Con Games Library
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We measure from the edge of the base, not the peg in the center.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alvin Simon
Philippines
flag msg tools
Make America Great Again
badge
Proud member of the Basket of Deplorables
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Corner to corner would usually allow you to determine the shortest distance, unless the defender facing the attacker head on, in which the center of the edge is the shortest distance, or if a part of the nearest corner is outside your firing arc, in which you measure up to the point on the edge still inside your firing arc.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
O B
United States
Mountainview
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DagobahDave wrote:

If it's "too close to call," we just call it in and quickly move on. It's more fun to roll than not roll.


My group has adopted a rule from Mobile Frame Zero in all of our miniature games:

Favor the attacker for attack possibilities (more shooting) and favor the defender for defense possibilities (more niceness).

In X-Wing this means if a range is questionable to even make the shot or if it's questionable to get the +1 close range bonus, go ahead and give it to the attacker.

Conversely if the range is questionable to grant the long range defense bonus grant it to the defender.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrea Angiolino
Italy
Rome
European Union
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ArcticSnake wrote:
Corner to corner would usually allow you to determine the shortest distance, unless the defender facing the attacker head on, in which the center of the edge is the shortest distance, or if a part of the nearest corner is outside your firing arc, in which you measure up to the point on the edge still inside your firing arc.


Maybe a drawing will better show what I meant:



I meant that the front of the firing arc should be flat, as by the red line I marked above, for a segment that is as large as the base (all the points of the gaming table that are at exact range distance from the front side of the firer). Then the arc becomes round on the sides, where the closest point of the firer's base is a corner.

I hope I explained myself.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrzej Sieradzki
Poland
Opole
flag msg tools
badge
We don't stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My group and me will stick to our old rule (measuring from the center of the base [a peg]) - it's easier, less problematic and minimizes the boundary problems, even if it limits the overall range a little bit. At the end of the day it refers to every firing craft, so no difference.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Bond
msg tools
The base rule is closest point of your ships base, to closest point on the enemy ships base.

For ships using a turret weapon, no further restrictions apply.

For ships with fire arcs, the point on your base that you start measuring from MUST be within your fire arc, this means that in extreme cases you are limited to where your fire arc line crosses the edge of your base. It's about 1 or 2 mm in from the corner.
Additionally, the closest point on the enemy ship that you use for the end point of the measurement must also be within your ships fire arc.

This can mean that whilst the absolute closest point of the enemy ship is within one range bracket, the point that you use for range measurement can be in the next range bracket. This most often happens when your target is a large based ship.

For instance, in this pic, the X-wing shoots at the YT-1300 at range 2, but the return shot from the YT-1300 to the X-wing is at range 1!

5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Val Cassotta
msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
McLaine wrote:


For instance, in this pic, the X-wing shoots at the YT-1300 at range 2, but the return shot from the YT-1300 to the X-wing is at range 1!



Nice illustration
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrea Angiolino
Italy
Rome
European Union
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
An interesting paradox affects line of sight. Measuring from the origin of the firing cone gives a pretty natural LOS, while measuring it from closest point to closest point can bring to very strange situations.

In both pictures here, for example, if you measure from closest point to closest point of bases, the X-Wing fires at the TIE Fighter ahead with the penalty for firing across an asteroid, while the Tie Fighter at its back has not such a penalty firing at the X-Wing. Not what you would say at first glance...

If you measured from the central peg instead, you would find a quite more intuitive and natural situation where the X-Wing has no penalty and the TIE has it.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron D
United States
Davis
California
flag msg tools
Mercury is my dog's name.
badge
I like hats.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nightbomber wrote:
My group and me will stick to our old rule (measuring from the center of the base [a peg]) - it's easier, less problematic and minimizes the boundary problems, even if it limits the overall range a little bit. At the end of the day it refers to every firing craft, so no difference.


Shortening Range 1 like that will really mess with game balance. A small ship base is 40mm square, and the Range 1 band is only 100mm, so you are giving up about a fifth of it measuring from the post (it gets even worse when a large base ship, 80mm square, is firing).

The game already seems to favor 3+ attack ships - making it that much harder to get a Range 1 shot will make the 2 attack ships even more difficult to play. On top of that, ships that want to avoid Range 1, like the already powerful HLC Outrider, will get a nice benefit (especially because its barrel roll is now virtually guaranteed to get it clear of Range 1).

This also makes it much harder for ships with no 1 Straight (like TIE Fighters, TIE Interceptors, and M3-As) to keep to a Range 3 "stand-off" distance, which can be important.

Measuring from the post also introduces a weird paradox where Range 1 is shorter for Large Ships than it is for Small Ships.

It might seem easier, and it is a little quicker, but changing to measuring from the post effectively shortens Range 1 which has a lot of consequences that only seem to make powerful ships better while negatively impacting less powerful ships. That doesn't seem good for game balance.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J H
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
McLaine wrote:
The base rule is closest point of your ships base, to closest point on the enemy ships base.

For ships using a turret weapon, no further restrictions apply.

For ships with fire arcs, the point on your base that you start measuring from MUST be within your fire arc, this means that in extreme cases you are limited to where your fire arc line crosses the edge of your base. It's about 1 or 2 mm in from the corner.
Additionally, the closest point on the enemy ship that you use for the end point of the measurement must also be within your ships fire arc.

This can mean that whilst the absolute closest point of the enemy ship is within one range bracket, the point that you use for range measurement can be in the next range bracket. This most often happens when your target is a large based ship.

For instance, in this pic, the X-wing shoots at the YT-1300 at range 2, but the return shot from the YT-1300 to the X-wing is at range 1!


A good pic, accurate information, and useful for newbies...

With that being said, is no one going to politely admonish a two and a half year old necro?

Does anyone actually think measuring range from the peg is okay in 2015?

Do any of the 2012 posters still play X-Wing (except Dave-Edit: or angiolillo) or check this thread?

The better question, perhaps, is what were you even looking for this deep in forum?

You've raised more questions than answers!

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron D
United States
Davis
California
flag msg tools
Mercury is my dog's name.
badge
I like hats.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Vallador wrote:
McLaine wrote:
The base rule is closest point of your ships base, to closest point on the enemy ships base.

For ships using a turret weapon, no further restrictions apply.

For ships with fire arcs, the point on your base that you start measuring from MUST be within your fire arc, this means that in extreme cases you are limited to where your fire arc line crosses the edge of your base. It's about 1 or 2 mm in from the corner.
Additionally, the closest point on the enemy ship that you use for the end point of the measurement must also be within your ships fire arc.

This can mean that whilst the absolute closest point of the enemy ship is within one range bracket, the point that you use for range measurement can be in the next range bracket. This most often happens when your target is a large based ship.

For instance, in this pic, the X-wing shoots at the YT-1300 at range 2, but the return shot from the YT-1300 to the X-wing is at range 1! :)


A good pic, accurate information, and useful for newbies...

With that being said, is no one going to politely admonish a two and a half year old necro?

Does anyone actually think measuring range from the peg is okay in 2015?

Do any of the 2012 posters still play X-Wing (except Dave-Edit: or angiolillo) or check this thread?

The better question, perhaps, is what were you even looking for this deep in forum?

You've raised more questions than answers!

:D


Wow. I missed the dates when I replied. No wonder the person I replied to hasn't seemed to notice...

I'm not the one who necro'ed the thread, but I still feel silly missing that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrea Angiolino
Italy
Rome
European Union
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, here on BGG it is not uncommon that an old thread pops up again. As long as relates games are still played, they can still be interesting to OP or to others. And easily ingnored by uninterested ones. Hence the decision by BGG not to lock old threads, as it happens elsewhere.
I am still fiddling with this game system, so I am still personally very interested in further hints on the relative strenghts and weaknesses of the two solutions. To be used here or in other games.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J H
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Fair points, all. I gave a smile at the end to hopefully indicate a friendly ribbing rather than an angry rant.

It's certainly a matter of opinion which issues are long "settled" and which aren't.

My mindset is that if someone rezzes a very old thread to the front page, I'll take the time to check it out. At which point I won't feel bad about taking others' time if they read my reply (instead of me ignoring the necro entirely).

(and, admittedly, I'm used to necromancers being treated a little like pariahs. Which, indeed, may not be the case here.)

No worries either way! Cheers.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alejandro Rascon
Mexico
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We measure arc from the center peg first.
Then we measure range from closest point to closest point.


Not sure if this is "tournament" official or not, but it works for us.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.