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Subject: Die Rebel Scum!! Am I missing something here? rss

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Karington Hess
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My friend and I have been playing 100 point matches and no matter the squad composition and no matter who plays the rebels they lose and lose hard. They just get out maneuvered by TIEs and then get shot to death by multiple TIEs. I feel like I am missing a key part of the Rebel strategy.
Rebels right now are 0-10. I would appreciate any strategy tips for the rebels.
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Luis Fernandez
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Rebels can´t fight conventional warfare, they are overnumbered so you have to confuse your enemy and separate the ties, it´s your only choice.

Do you use the Ywing?
Being a rebel i was hard to tear down with luke skywalker and the droid for evasion that harsh to kill.
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Jason Kirchin
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I haven't played enough to be an expert but I agree with your assertion I am wondering if its because the cheap ties are just really cost efficient compared to the rebels. Being outnumbered 2 to 1 against ships that are more manueverable isn't a good situation to be in.
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Eric B.
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Seem to have the opposite here--Rebels seem to be the top dog.

Not sure what point-level of games you're playing. If you're just doing 1 X-Wing vs. 2 TIEs, then my below advice is moot. If you're playing 60-100pt games, it will be more useful.

One thing the Rebels need to do is to concentrate all of their fire on single targets. This will require setting up your firing arcs to significantly overlap each turn.

It does no good to have three different TIEs each with a single damage card (barring critical hits). Better to have dealt that three damage to a single TIE and destroyed it. In a similar vein, by concentrating fire all at one target then they can only use their Evade/Focus token on one of those attacks are more vulnerable to future attacks that round. If you shoot at three different TIEs, each with an Evade token, you're really costing yourself some potential damage.

If you are using one or more Y-Wings, always give them an Ion Cannon before any other upgrade. A Y-Wing without an Ion Cannon is like a archer without arrows. If able, always attack TIEs that have a stress token (e.g. after having just executed a red Koigran turn) because this means that TIE will be trapped with the stress token for at least another turn, preventing them from Evading or Barrel Rolling.


Other than that, it might just take finding the right combination of pilots and upgrades to suit your play style.

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Karington Hess
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Luisjoey wrote:
Rebels can´t fight conventional warfare, they are overnumbered so you have to confuse your enemy and separate the ties, it´s your only choice.

Do you use the Ywing?
Being a rebel i was hard to tear down with luke skywalker and the droid for evasion that harsh to kill.


I have the Y-wing and use it often. I think that the ion cannon is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I am very fond of Dutch Vander because re-rolls are awesome.
 
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Eric B.
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If you want to try my preferred 100-Point Elite Rebel Build that uses two X-Wings and one Y-Wing (I suspect most people have this combination):

Horton Salm [8] (25)
• R5 Astromech (1) {during end phase, turn one face-up Damage face-down}
• Ion Cannon Turret (5)
• Proton Torpedoes (4)
Luke Skywalker [8] (28)
• R2-D2 (4) (or R2-F2 and Determination)
Wedge Antilles [9] (29)
• Determination (1)
• R5-D8 (3)
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Karington Hess
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RogueThirteen wrote:
Seem to have the opposite here--Rebels seem to be the top dog.

Not sure what point-level of games you're playing. If you're just doing 1 X-Wing vs. 2 TIEs, then my below advice is moot. If you're playing 60-100pt games, it will be more useful.

One thing the Rebels need to do is to concentrate all of their fire on single targets. This will require setting up your firing arcs to significantly overlap each turn.

It does no good to have three different TIEs each with a single damage card (barring critical hits). Better to have dealt that three damage to a single TIE and destroyed it. In a similar vein, by concentrating fire all at one target then they can only use their Evade/Focus token on one of those attacks are more vulnerable to future attacks that round. If you shoot at three different TIEs, each with an Evade token, you're really costing yourself some potential damage.

If you are using one or more Y-Wings, always give them an Ion Cannon before any other upgrade. A Y-Wing without an Ion Cannon is like a archer without arrows. If able, always attack TIEs that have a stress token (e.g. after having just executed a red Koigran turn) because this means that TIE will be trapped with the stress token for at least another turn, preventing them from Evading or Barrel Rolling.


Other than that, it might just take finding the right combination of pilots and upgrades to suit your play style.




My last game was the closest we had. I fielded:
Dutch w/ Ion Cannon & R5 K5
Wedge w/ marksmanship & R2 D2 & Proton Torpedoes
Biggs w/ R2 F2

98 points

My opponent fielded

6 obsidian squadron ties
1 tempest squadron tie advanced

99 points

Everything was going according to plan until the pile-in when Biggs lost his action enabling him to have an extra defense die. He was then hammered into oblivion. I took out 3 ties before Wedge and Dutch were overwhelmed and destroyed by the TIEdal wave.

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If you've been using 3 ship Rebel squads, I would try to squeeze in a 4th ship. Last 2 games I used:

Wedge + Swarm Tactics
Rookie Pilot
Gold Squadron Pilot + Ion Cannon + R5 Astromech
Gold Squadron Pilot + Ion Cannon + R5 Astromech

Seemed to work pretty well. Won both games. First against a 7 TIE Fighter swarm and then against a 4 ship elite squad with Vader and Stele.
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Eric T
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I have only played 60 pt matches. What we have found is the xwings do straight attack runs with wide turns or u-turn maneuvers.
A heavy firing run as they pass thru the ties is important.

Trying to stay close with ties is a recipe for disaster.

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Charlie Theel
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As a Rebel the most simple and basic advice which you must utlizie is A) Focus your fire on a single TIE and B) Target lock that poor bastard.

You don't have to out maneuver the TIEs. Try to fly straight into the swarm with Dutch in the middle. Dutch can pass off extra Target locks and you should be able to seriously cripple the TIEs.

You should be Target Locking with almost every action with your X-Wings. TIEs have a hard enough time bringing you down with only 2 Attack dice, so don't get into a defensive shell and save Focus' for your agility rolls.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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And if you're target locking, use Dutch Vander with Garven Dreis (Gold Leader and Red Leader respectively). Dutch will allow you to target lock with him and usually drop a free target lock on Dreis. Then with Dreis you focus and give Dutch a free focus. Then when attacking, both of your ships will have target locks AND focus!

-shnar
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Eric B.
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charlest wrote:

You should be Target Locking with almost every action with your X-Wings. TIEs have a hard enough time bringing you down with only 2 Attack dice, so don't get into a defensive shell and save Focus' for your agility rolls.



I'm not sure. A 3-die attack with Focus has the same expected damage as a 3-die attack with Target Lock (see the work posted here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/856660/all-the-stats-exp...).

So, each has it's merits, but offensively they're identical (unless you're Horton Salm, in which case Focus, Focus, Focus). If you Focus, it might help you defensively if the opponent shoots first or if you don't need it on your attack roll. Target Lock can be carried over into future turns if it's not needed. So, contexts might make one more preferable than the other.

Of course, a Target Lock + Focus is a huge boon, so trying to stack them is what you really want to accomplish.
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Charlie Theel
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RogueThirteen wrote:
charlest wrote:

You should be Target Locking with almost every action with your X-Wings. TIEs have a hard enough time bringing you down with only 2 Attack dice, so don't get into a defensive shell and save Focus' for your agility rolls.



I'm not sure. A 3-die attack with Focus has the same expected damage as a 3-die attack with Target Lock (see the work posted here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/856660/all-the-stats-exp...).


Those stats are calculating average number of Hits. However, Target Lock is strictly better because the dice you re-roll may turn up a Critical, where as the Focus results are always turned into regular hits. When combating TIEs, the Criticals are a great factor.

Also, while the average hits are identical, Target Locks are more swingy. The lower and upper end are wider than Focus. I prefer this because if I'm getting pummelled, I always have that chance to get a killer result of max damage and get me back into things.
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Jeff Paul
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Excellent point with respect to crits having a higher likelihood with target lock. I thought karde had done that calculation, but I don't see it on his list

http://files.boardgamegeek.com/file/download/975k57q0x1/Chan...?

However, target lock and focus have exactly the same distributions of hits.

I was a little surprised when the numbers came out that way (and it is possible I erred), but the probabilities are identical.

As for the OPs original question, we've found the opposite so far. Rebels are much higher win percentage. The higher skill means aces Ties are dead before they even get a shot off. And the rebels (so far) have had better synergy builds.
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Kurt Weihs
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With the, admittedly few, battles that I have played as the Empire I have found that a rebel force with four ships is far more intimidating than a rebel force with three ships. Getting the first shot off helps get the edge so you want to make sure you have Wedge and Swarm Tactics to convert one of your lowbees into an ace like him.

So far, it seems that the named pilots are nice but using too many will hinder you more than help since the ships all perform essentially the same. If you are going to take a named pilot make sure you match the pilot with the task. Skills are situational and depending on the scenario you might see a big bump in a particular pilot's performance. You NEED at least one pilot who shoots early, but after that it becomes very situational.
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Chris Ballinger
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gradman2k3 wrote:
I have only played 60 pt matches. What we have found is the xwings do straight attack runs with wide turns or u-turn maneuvers.
A heavy firing run as they pass thru the ties is important.

Trying to stay close with ties is a recipe for disaster.



Anyone else notice that these tactics are very similar to the tactics that American pilots used against the more nimble Japanese aircraft at the begining of WWII? A P40 had no chance in a turning fight against a Zero, so gaining an advantage in altitude and diving through the Japanese formations made the best use of the Warhawk's armor and durability.

That being said, has any one tried using the "Thatch Weave" against the TIEs? I was thinking about trying this tactic but haven't had time to play.
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Jon Halter
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RogueThirteen wrote:
If you want to try my preferred 100-Point Elite Rebel Build that uses two X-Wings and one Y-Wing (I suspect most people have this combination):

Horton Salm [8] (25)
• R5 Astromech (1) {during end phase, turn one face-up Damage face-down}
• Ion Cannon Turret (5)
• Proton Torpedoes (4)
Luke Skywalker [8] (28)
• R2-D2 (4) (or R2-F2 and Determination)
Wedge Antilles [9] (29)
• Determination (1)
• R5-D8 (3)


The Problem with these three ship elite builds is being overwhelmed.

Darth (concussion missiles), Howlrunner and Mauler plus a couple of academy TIEs Typically tear this list apart.

If, on the first pass, you can take out one X Wing (Wedge preferably) by concentrated fire there is something wrong with your dice :-)

Once they are down to two ships it's just cleaning up.

Imperials are 11-1 in our house and only looking stronger.
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Andrew Martin
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Funny...the Thatch Weave came up in our game last night. Just a mention of it though. We didn't use it.

And the game makes me think of MIG vs. F4 Phantom myself. MIG/TIE wins a turning fight, but F4/X-Wing has advanced avionics.
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Scott Egan
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Buckaroo13 wrote:
RogueThirteen wrote:
If you want to try my preferred 100-Point Elite Rebel Build that uses two X-Wings and one Y-Wing (I suspect most people have this combination):

Horton Salm [8] (25)
• R5 Astromech (1) {during end phase, turn one face-up Damage face-down}
• Ion Cannon Turret (5)
• Proton Torpedoes (4)
Luke Skywalker [8] (28)
• R2-D2 (4) (or R2-F2 and Determination)
Wedge Antilles [9] (29)
• Determination (1)
• R5-D8 (3)


The Problem with these three ship elite builds is being overwhelmed.

Darth (concussion missiles), Howlrunner and Mauler plus a couple of academy TIEs Typically tear this list apart.

If, on the first pass, you can take out one X Wing (Wedge preferably) by concentrated fire there is something wrong with your dice :-)

Once they are down to two ships it's just cleaning up.

Imperials are 11-1 in our house and only looking stronger.


5-1 using 3 ship Rebel builds against the above described Imp squadron. While I don't like the above listed Rebel squad I'm getting the impression that alot of Rebel players are going into the game without a plan.
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Ethan McKinney
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CBallinger wrote:
That being said, has any one tried using the "Thatch Weave" against the TIEs?


"Thach" Weave, as I mentioned elsewhere. It's the guy's name.
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Andrew Martin
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Whoops...either way....I don't think it's as important in X-Wing as it was in real life. You just want to have people in your firing arc...personally I don't care if that's behind them or not. Even backstabber gets his bonus from the flank as well.
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Karington Hess
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Thanks to everyone who weighed in on this issue. I'm going to take all of this into consideration and hopefully lead the rebels to victory. I think I will try using the elite rebels first and move on to rebel swarm afterwards if that doesn't work out. I will keep you posted and hopefully will report back with success.
 
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David Jackman
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RogueThirteen wrote:
charlest wrote:

You should be Target Locking with almost every action with your X-Wings. TIEs have a hard enough time bringing you down with only 2 Attack dice, so don't get into a defensive shell and save Focus' for your agility rolls.



I'm not sure. A 3-die attack with Focus has the same expected damage as a 3-die attack with Target Lock (see the work posted here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/856660/all-the-stats-exp...).

So, each has it's merits, but offensively they're identical (unless you're Horton Salm, in which case Focus, Focus, Focus). If you Focus, it might help you defensively if the opponent shoots first or if you don't need it on your attack roll. Target Lock can be carried over into future turns if it's not needed. So, contexts might make one more preferable than the other.

Of course, a Target Lock + Focus is a huge boon, so trying to stack them is what you really want to accomplish.


Target lock carries over from turn to turn, and you dont need to be in firing arc to lock on for a later turn. These are the main advantages over focus, i think.
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Eric B.
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Saan wrote:

Target lock carries over from turn to turn, and you dont need to be in firing arc to lock on for a later turn. These are the main advantages over focus, i think.


Of course, but the benefit of Focus is that you might be able to use it for when you roll two EYES on Defense (with the amount Rebel ships get shot at, this isn't a terribly rare roll) and then pretty much cancel out the entire attack. At only two attack dice, a good solid TIE hit isn't terribly common and being able to negate it when it does happen is really nice. Now, there will certainly be situations when Target Lock is more useful and vice versa, but I'm not ready to declare that Target Lock should always be the default Rebel action before Focus.


The reason I like the 3 Ship Elite build I posted above (Luke with R2-F2 + Determination and Wedge with the R5 that can try repairs and Determination) is that it maximizes the chances your ships are going to cancel out or ignore damage. And with so few ships, this is absolutely essential for the Rebels if they want to win. They are going to get shot at a ton each turn, so they need to be able to weather it long enough to win. Wedge and Salm have enough innate potency on offense that the squad can invest effort (actions) into staying alive.
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David Jackman
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RogueThirteen wrote:
Saan wrote:

Target lock carries over from turn to turn, and you dont need to be in firing arc to lock on for a later turn. These are the main advantages over focus, i think.


Of course, but the benefit of Focus is that you might be able to use it for when you roll two EYES on Defense (with the amount Rebel ships get shot at, this isn't a terribly rare roll) and then pretty much cancel out the entire attack. At only two attack dice, a good solid TIE hit isn't terribly common and being able to negate it when it does happen is really nice. Now, there will certainly be situations when Target Lock is more useful and vice versa, but I'm not ready to declare that Target Lock should always be the default Rebel action before Focus.


The reason I like the 3 Ship Elite build I posted above (Luke with R2-F2 + Determination and Wedge with the R5 that can try repairs and Determination) is that it maximizes the chances your ships are going to cancel out or ignore damage. And with so few ships, this is absolutely essential for the Rebels if they want to win. They are going to get shot at a ton each turn, so they need to be able to weather it long enough to win. Wedge and Salm have enough innate potency on offense that the squad can invest effort (actions) into staying alive.


Yep, I agree. Focus gets used a lot more often, and should, i think. But if you are in a situation where:

A) you dont have LOS to a target that you want to shoot, and
B) you arent in much danger of taking damage

then target lock is good, where focus will be useless.
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